Comments on: When Liturgy Goes Bad: Constantinian Liturgy in a Post-Constantinian World http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:28:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: brandonspain http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1917 brandonspain Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:55:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1917 What about the concept of liturgy being catholic (little c) and the universalness of symbols. I am all for being missional and incarnational - but what do you do to maintain the "localness" of liturgical symbols but yet still connect with the "one..catholic ... church?"<br/><br/>This is a great discussion as the leaders of our church are making a transition as a church from a lowe church tradition to implementing liturgical formation. What about the concept of liturgy being catholic (little c) and the universalness of symbols. I am all for being missional and incarnational – but what do you do to maintain the “localness” of liturgical symbols but yet still connect with the “one..catholic … church?”

This is a great discussion as the leaders of our church are making a transition as a church from a lowe church tradition to implementing liturgical formation.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1916 Anonymous Sat, 30 Aug 2008 14:23:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1916 catechesized ? catechesized ?

]]> By: Geoff Holsclaw http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1915 Geoff Holsclaw Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:08:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1915 I also very much enjoy these comments, and the post too. <br/><br/>But I have a hesitation. While the church may have fallen under Constantine and become established (and therefore took up the means of violence), I'm not sure that this therefore taints all liturgical forms practiced within the Constantinian era.<br/><br/>Another way of saying this is that while certainly liturgical forms were crusted over by Constantine, the previous core (or essential structure) had been well established before Constantine, enduring during Constantine and after. <br/><br/>A right concern of Constantinianism should not cause us to opt out from hard liturgical research on how/why certain forms took shape as they did. Otherwise we are apt to merely develop a new (liturgically) improved 'seeker-sensitive' worship service under the guise of being missional. I also very much enjoy these comments, and the post too.

But I have a hesitation. While the church may have fallen under Constantine and become established (and therefore took up the means of violence), I’m not sure that this therefore taints all liturgical forms practiced within the Constantinian era.

Another way of saying this is that while certainly liturgical forms were crusted over by Constantine, the previous core (or essential structure) had been well established before Constantine, enduring during Constantine and after.

A right concern of Constantinianism should not cause us to opt out from hard liturgical research on how/why certain forms took shape as they did. Otherwise we are apt to merely develop a new (liturgically) improved ‘seeker-sensitive’ worship service under the guise of being missional.

]]> By: Monk-in-Training http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1914 Monk-in-Training Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:02:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1914 There is an old saying "lex orandi lex credendi". It means how you pray, is how you believe.<br/><br/>I think the way a community worships is VERY formative on the hearts of those who participate. Liturgy requires participation, not limply setting and listening to someone preach to you. I think it changes how people view their faith, it makes them more involved. There is an old saying “lex orandi lex credendi”. It means how you pray, is how you believe.

I think the way a community worships is VERY formative on the hearts of those who participate. Liturgy requires participation, not limply setting and listening to someone preach to you. I think it changes how people view their faith, it makes them more involved.

]]> By: Len Hjalmarson http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1913 Len Hjalmarson Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:28:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1913 "Shouldn't we find symbols that <br/>actually communicate..If we are truly missional in our orientation, then we shouldn't be trying to acculturate our congregants into a liturgical tradition so much as incarnate liturgy within our culture. Put simply, create liturgy that transforms people and culture..."<br/><br/>Beth: "indeed.. [but we] need to be aware how profoundly people who show up to worship have *already* been formed .."<br/><br/>so there are no "pure" symbols.. they all have cultural and historical content, just as do words (which are another form of symbol). So adopting an existing liturgical form is also adopting a whole way of seeing the world, one that has been largely lost. But we could invent our own new ways, based on alternate and older ways of seeing, yet if we do that, if we reinvent in order to move back, we risk a loss of connection with the older story where if we embrace existing patterns and symbols we reconnect with older memories. This is where I have come out anyway... “Shouldn’t we find symbols that
actually communicate..If we are truly missional in our orientation, then we shouldn’t be trying to acculturate our congregants into a liturgical tradition so much as incarnate liturgy within our culture. Put simply, create liturgy that transforms people and culture…”

Beth: “indeed.. [but we] need to be aware how profoundly people who show up to worship have *already* been formed ..”

so there are no “pure” symbols.. they all have cultural and historical content, just as do words (which are another form of symbol). So adopting an existing liturgical form is also adopting a whole way of seeing the world, one that has been largely lost. But we could invent our own new ways, based on alternate and older ways of seeing, yet if we do that, if we reinvent in order to move back, we risk a loss of connection with the older story where if we embrace existing patterns and symbols we reconnect with older memories. This is where I have come out anyway…

]]> By: Len Hjalmarson http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1912 Len Hjalmarson Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:10:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1912 beth, helpful thoughts, makes perfect sense. So much of this seems to be about recovering rhythms, but also understanding the relationship of parts to the whole. It's good to see that we are escaping the rationalistic, technocratic paradigm that shaped.. and fragmented.. our communities. beth, helpful thoughts, makes perfect sense. So much of this seems to be about recovering rhythms, but also understanding the relationship of parts to the whole. It’s good to see that we are escaping the rationalistic, technocratic paradigm that shaped.. and fragmented.. our communities.

]]> By: Steve Carlson http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1911 Steve Carlson Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:45:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1911 Don't know if this is the place for my comment, but here goes. I've been trying to figure out how liturgy can be forming since I began studying under Robert Webber. A few weeks ago my wife and I were visiting friends and went to their church. We sat right up front middle as we like to do. It was a small place and on the table up front were a cross to the left, a bunch of white lilies to the right and a simple painting of a sprouting plant in the middle. The elements for the Eucharist were placed in the front of the table. Now my wife and I had a great discussion about what those symbols meant afterward, but as I think back I am glad no one started giving explanations for each part. It was a rich experience for both myself and my wife. <br/><br/>On the other hand, just 2 weeks ago we went to a church that spent almost 5 minutes describing what the Eucharist meant and giving instructions. I almost couldn't wait to go partake because now I had a meaning for it. <br/><br/>Just a couple of thoughts. Don’t know if this is the place for my comment, but here goes. I’ve been trying to figure out how liturgy can be forming since I began studying under Robert Webber. A few weeks ago my wife and I were visiting friends and went to their church. We sat right up front middle as we like to do. It was a small place and on the table up front were a cross to the left, a bunch of white lilies to the right and a simple painting of a sprouting plant in the middle. The elements for the Eucharist were placed in the front of the table. Now my wife and I had a great discussion about what those symbols meant afterward, but as I think back I am glad no one started giving explanations for each part. It was a rich experience for both myself and my wife.

On the other hand, just 2 weeks ago we went to a church that spent almost 5 minutes describing what the Eucharist meant and giving instructions. I almost couldn’t wait to go partake because now I had a meaning for it.

Just a couple of thoughts.

]]> By: Beth http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1910 Beth Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:10:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1910 That's kind of you to say David -- this has been a great discussion from all directions I think! That’s kind of you to say David — this has been a great discussion from all directions I think!

]]> By: David Fitch http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1909 David Fitch Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:31:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1909 hey everyone, my apologies on not responding more to these comments, all of which are so helpful. In fact, thank you Beth for "moderating"this blog post ... its been rich! I've been caught up in a few othe discussions and projects and clas business ... so Beth et al. keep up the great learning going on here .. DF hey everyone, my apologies on not responding more to these comments, all of which are so helpful. In fact, thank you Beth for “moderating”this blog post … its been rich! I’ve been caught up in a few othe discussions and projects and clas business … so Beth et al. keep up the great learning going on here .. DF

]]> By: Steve Carlson http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1908 Steve Carlson Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:54:00 +0000 http://nathancolquhoun1.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/when-liturgy-goes-bad-constantinian-liturgy-in-a-post-constantinian-world/#comment-1908 Hey everybody, great discussion! I read this blog all the time and I always find I am brought deeper into the discussion through these comments. Hey everybody, great discussion! I read this blog all the time and I always find I am brought deeper into the discussion through these comments.

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