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	<title>Comments on: Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians Useless?</title>
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		<title>By: Sue</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-5788</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-5788</guid>
		<description>The world is groaning under the collective weight of all the theologies. There is more theology being done now than ever before.

And yet the entire world is getting more and more insane every day. Indeed much of the insanity is being generated by benighted self-possessed religiionists.

All theology is useless because it is incapable of changing any one or any thing at a DEPTH level. 

In fact the mind that does theology actively prevents any such change from occurring, indeed its very purpose is to keep the status quo intact.

The story of Humpty Dumpty addressed this issue. You know--- all the kings horses and all the kings men (that is NO theology) can never ever put Humpty back together again</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The world is groaning under the collective weight of all the theologies. There is more theology being done now than ever before.</p>
<p>And yet the entire world is getting more and more insane every day. Indeed much of the insanity is being generated by benighted self-possessed religiionists.</p>
<p>All theology is useless because it is incapable of changing any one or any thing at a DEPTH level. </p>
<p>In fact the mind that does theology actively prevents any such change from occurring, indeed its very purpose is to keep the status quo intact.</p>
<p>The story of Humpty Dumpty addressed this issue. You know&#8212; all the kings horses and all the kings men (that is NO theology) can never ever put Humpty back together again</p>
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		<title>By: Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians Useless? &#171; Jason Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-4127</link>
		<dc:creator>Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians Useless? &#171; Jason Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-4127</guid>
		<description>[...] Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians&#160;Useless?  Posted on April 17, 2009 by jasonsmith   Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians Useless?. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians&nbsp;Useless?  Posted on April 17, 2009 by jasonsmith   Reclaiming the Mission » Tony Jones Asks: Are Academic Theologians Useless?. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Van Steenwyk</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3934</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Van Steenwyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3934</guid>
		<description>I realize that what I&#039;m about to say is going to come off as a bit extreme. But let me preface it by saying that I am a firm advocate for deep learning. I&#039;m not anti-intellectual in the least.

However, the older I get, the more I&#039;m convinced that our educational systems in the West are largely to blame for the problems in the world. Maybe I&#039;ve read too much Ivan Illich and Paulo Freire and been influenced too much by radical streams of theology that refuse to go along with the program. 

My experience...real life experience...tells me that uneducated folks committed to radical living make MUCH better and more astute students than educated folks that are committed to radical ideas. Modern education has, regardless of subject matter, an embedded set of values that are often antithetical to holistic discipleship. It also limits our imaginations...making us susceptible to external agendas and better cogs in the imperial machine.

Even seminaries that, from within the inherited model of western education, try to integrate ministry and theology, tend to make too many assumptions about privilege, the educational process, what constitutes &quot;good&quot; theology, etc. And so, my experience tells me that while most seminarians end up being more adept at living and leading within Christendom, they are certainly less adept at helping lead people beyond Christendom. They aren&#039;t able to challenge the Principalities and Powers because they no longer have imaginations to see beyond them.

The best of us may suspect what is wrong enough to recommend some helpful reading to those in captivity, but it is a rare person indeed who offers a way of holistic praxis and thought that can show people a way beyond. 

While our world has space for academic theologians and good-old-fashioned ministers, it has a greater need of theologically minded practitioners and praxis minded theologians. But even MORE than that, we need pioneers who can move beyond Christendom to embrace new ways of ministry and new ways of pedagogy. 

This is why I chose, about 6 years ago, to depart from the path that would lead to my becoming an academic theologian. And it is also why I chose, about 4 years ago, to depart from the path that would lead to my becoming an institutional pastor. But folks that know me would say that I am still a fledgling theologian and an active minister in the Body of Christ. It has been a painful (but I believe necessary) thing for me to seek a more radical path. And I am doing everything I can to make that path more feasible for as many people as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that what I&#8217;m about to say is going to come off as a bit extreme. But let me preface it by saying that I am a firm advocate for deep learning. I&#8217;m not anti-intellectual in the least.</p>
<p>However, the older I get, the more I&#8217;m convinced that our educational systems in the West are largely to blame for the problems in the world. Maybe I&#8217;ve read too much Ivan Illich and Paulo Freire and been influenced too much by radical streams of theology that refuse to go along with the program. </p>
<p>My experience&#8230;real life experience&#8230;tells me that uneducated folks committed to radical living make MUCH better and more astute students than educated folks that are committed to radical ideas. Modern education has, regardless of subject matter, an embedded set of values that are often antithetical to holistic discipleship. It also limits our imaginations&#8230;making us susceptible to external agendas and better cogs in the imperial machine.</p>
<p>Even seminaries that, from within the inherited model of western education, try to integrate ministry and theology, tend to make too many assumptions about privilege, the educational process, what constitutes &#8220;good&#8221; theology, etc. And so, my experience tells me that while most seminarians end up being more adept at living and leading within Christendom, they are certainly less adept at helping lead people beyond Christendom. They aren&#8217;t able to challenge the Principalities and Powers because they no longer have imaginations to see beyond them.</p>
<p>The best of us may suspect what is wrong enough to recommend some helpful reading to those in captivity, but it is a rare person indeed who offers a way of holistic praxis and thought that can show people a way beyond. </p>
<p>While our world has space for academic theologians and good-old-fashioned ministers, it has a greater need of theologically minded practitioners and praxis minded theologians. But even MORE than that, we need pioneers who can move beyond Christendom to embrace new ways of ministry and new ways of pedagogy. </p>
<p>This is why I chose, about 6 years ago, to depart from the path that would lead to my becoming an academic theologian. And it is also why I chose, about 4 years ago, to depart from the path that would lead to my becoming an institutional pastor. But folks that know me would say that I am still a fledgling theologian and an active minister in the Body of Christ. It has been a painful (but I believe necessary) thing for me to seek a more radical path. And I am doing everything I can to make that path more feasible for as many people as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: davidfitch</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3836</link>
		<dc:creator>davidfitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3836</guid>
		<description>Dan, I appreciate what you&#039;re doing there at Tyndale! I hear many god things.
Steve,
I agree it is difficult, I think part of my argument here should be, given the current demise of Christendom and Christendom forms of seminary, seminaries and academia of the church are going to be forced to think seminary differently (I know this is an ongoing mantra out there). Part of this rethinking is that pastors become professors and vice versa as part of a communal educational network.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, I appreciate what you&#8217;re doing there at Tyndale! I hear many god things.<br />
Steve,<br />
I agree it is difficult, I think part of my argument here should be, given the current demise of Christendom and Christendom forms of seminary, seminaries and academia of the church are going to be forced to think seminary differently (I know this is an ongoing mantra out there). Part of this rethinking is that pastors become professors and vice versa as part of a communal educational network.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Daniel L. Wong</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3813</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Daniel L. Wong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3813</guid>
		<description>It was great to meet you at the Toronto &quot;Evolving Church&quot; conference last month.   I have your book &quot;The Great Giveaway&quot; to my right and I am re-reading it.  I appreciate your perspective and apt critique of the church.

I teach at Tyndale University College that not only offers liberal arts degrees but also ministry-oriented ones as well.  We are trying to provide practical training for our ministry students.  Our Seminary component is touted to be missional but every institution has challenges fleshing that out.  Our In-Ministry degree is helpful as it is 1 day/week and does more integration.

I am re-thinking theological education as one who teaches ministry.  I am doing more coaching and mentoring of pastors and students these days &quot;on the side.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was great to meet you at the Toronto &#8220;Evolving Church&#8221; conference last month.   I have your book &#8220;The Great Giveaway&#8221; to my right and I am re-reading it.  I appreciate your perspective and apt critique of the church.</p>
<p>I teach at Tyndale University College that not only offers liberal arts degrees but also ministry-oriented ones as well.  We are trying to provide practical training for our ministry students.  Our Seminary component is touted to be missional but every institution has challenges fleshing that out.  Our In-Ministry degree is helpful as it is 1 day/week and does more integration.</p>
<p>I am re-thinking theological education as one who teaches ministry.  I am doing more coaching and mentoring of pastors and students these days &#8220;on the side.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3705</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3705</guid>
		<description>as a pastor and academic theologian at same time, i applaud the sentiments but warn against romanticisation. doing both has at times negatively impacted both my church ministry and my academic &quot;career.&quot; 

in ministry, i am boxed as &quot;intellectual&quot; and thus for some, treated with suspicion. in academy, i am treated with suspicion cos i dont&#039; write enough theologically. it&#039;s tough to do both.

and for a interesting catholic perspective on this - check out http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6607117.html

steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as a pastor and academic theologian at same time, i applaud the sentiments but warn against romanticisation. doing both has at times negatively impacted both my church ministry and my academic &#8220;career.&#8221; </p>
<p>in ministry, i am boxed as &#8220;intellectual&#8221; and thus for some, treated with suspicion. in academy, i am treated with suspicion cos i dont&#8217; write enough theologically. it&#8217;s tough to do both.</p>
<p>and for a interesting catholic perspective on this &#8211; check out <a href="http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6607117.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6607117.html</a></p>
<p>steve</p>
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		<title>By: graceshaker</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3687</link>
		<dc:creator>graceshaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3687</guid>
		<description>the best theologian is the one youve never heard of who has impacted the lives of those around him by integrating his passion with his circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the best theologian is the one youve never heard of who has impacted the lives of those around him by integrating his passion with his circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: len</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3649</link>
		<dc:creator>len</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3649</guid>
		<description>This conversation is also happening in Canada, and of course has spurred initiatives like ALLELON and FORGE. FORGE has arrived in Canada and it looks like it might take a uniquely Canadian shape. I&#039;m encouraged by the people and vision involved..   www.forgecanada.ca</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation is also happening in Canada, and of course has spurred initiatives like ALLELON and FORGE. FORGE has arrived in Canada and it looks like it might take a uniquely Canadian shape. I&#8217;m encouraged by the people and vision involved..   <a href="http://www.forgecanada.ca" rel="nofollow">http://www.forgecanada.ca</a></p>
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		<title>By: David Fitch</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3558</link>
		<dc:creator>David Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 02:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3558</guid>
		<description>Wow This converstion is encouraging. Thanks Bill for your perspective. And Jeremy, thanks for your take. I agree with your assessment of things... 
Adam you got me thinking as well. I think blogs have certainly helped alot. I think of some blogs that receive alot of hits that I would call tweener blogs - Scot McKnight&#039;s Jesus Creed, Michael Spencer&#039;s Imonk and Mark&#039;s Jesus Manifesto. I even see the recent discussion on Nate Kerr&#039;s book on church and pomo blog as the kind of thing that can take academic discussion and make it accessible to tweener people. Despite the power of blogs and what we see in the work of blogs like these and many others, I also see blogs in danger of being absorbed by the publishers and the promotion of books. I&#039;m interested in how this is all going to wash out. 
Mark, 
I love your phrase &quot;organic intellectualism.&quot; I have hopes for this as seminaries continue to shrink and must rely on new sorts of pastor/professors. I think there are a few seminaries rethinking their mission and the cost that could lead to some of what you talk about. 
     I think there&#039;s going to be some amazing changes in semianry education. The issue is, how do the &quot;free seminaries&quot; avoid  the danger of lack of discpline and rigor which avoiding the established seminaries temptation to self-perpetuation of self enclosed specialized language.  There has to be a way to carry on orthodoxy and its ongoing development for post Christendom without it becoming ossified and cloistered.  
I do see hope in all the short run publishers (wipf and stock etc.). 
In the end , all these places have to find a way to survive financially ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow This converstion is encouraging. Thanks Bill for your perspective. And Jeremy, thanks for your take. I agree with your assessment of things&#8230;<br />
Adam you got me thinking as well. I think blogs have certainly helped alot. I think of some blogs that receive alot of hits that I would call tweener blogs &#8211; Scot McKnight&#8217;s Jesus Creed, Michael Spencer&#8217;s Imonk and Mark&#8217;s Jesus Manifesto. I even see the recent discussion on Nate Kerr&#8217;s book on church and pomo blog as the kind of thing that can take academic discussion and make it accessible to tweener people. Despite the power of blogs and what we see in the work of blogs like these and many others, I also see blogs in danger of being absorbed by the publishers and the promotion of books. I&#8217;m interested in how this is all going to wash out.<br />
Mark,<br />
I love your phrase &#8220;organic intellectualism.&#8221; I have hopes for this as seminaries continue to shrink and must rely on new sorts of pastor/professors. I think there are a few seminaries rethinking their mission and the cost that could lead to some of what you talk about.<br />
     I think there&#8217;s going to be some amazing changes in semianry education. The issue is, how do the &#8220;free seminaries&#8221; avoid  the danger of lack of discpline and rigor which avoiding the established seminaries temptation to self-perpetuation of self enclosed specialized language.  There has to be a way to carry on orthodoxy and its ongoing development for post Christendom without it becoming ossified and cloistered.<br />
I do see hope in all the short run publishers (wipf and stock etc.).<br />
In the end , all these places have to find a way to survive financially &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Langley</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/tony-jones-asks-are-academic-theologians-useless/comment-page-1/#comment-3552</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Langley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 21:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=422#comment-3552</guid>
		<description>David,

i was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if &quot;papacy.&quot; is the correct analogy here. It seems that &quot;magisterium&quot; might be more appropriate, given the fact that publishers are not a single person. Nor is there a unidirectional influence from publisher to readership Obviously the readership to some extent determines what the publishers publish. there is a sense here in which readership gets a vote A sense in which there is a sort of democracy. And there is certainly a kind of accountability with the publishers--no ex cathedra.  

I think it would be fair to say (and worth saying)  that of the publishing houses, Baker--the guys who publish your own book--are probably doing the best job of producing these kind of &quot;Tweener&quot; books that you recommend.

But you know, as I was thinking about this last night, it occurred to me that it might be said that today publishers have less power than they did even 10 years ago. And this would be largely due to the influence that blogs have upon public thinking. Blogs are not moderated by any publishers. I think an analogous scenario might be the rise of Independent film Due to the better accessibility, but high quality, of digital media.

Phil Cooke makes the point that today, largely due to Internet media it is becoming less and less about making money and more about influence.

I guess what I&#039;m suggesting is that with the coming of the digital age, the power of those who possess the &quot;keys to the kingdom&quot; (e.g. the publishing houses) is diminishing in power. That is not to say that they are completely without power. Nor is it to say that they are without significant power. But what I am saying is that it seems that the balance of power is becoming more and more equally distributed. Every one, now,can be an author and a publisher. It is not up to the publishers who visits your blog. 

But the publishers do control, to some extent, the amount of traffic that gets to your blog, and thus the influence of your blog.  There are also book tours and so on and so forth. 

anyway I just wanted to share these thoughts.  Thanks for writing.

blessings...

Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>i was thinking about this some more, and I wonder if &#8220;papacy.&#8221; is the correct analogy here. It seems that &#8220;magisterium&#8221; might be more appropriate, given the fact that publishers are not a single person. Nor is there a unidirectional influence from publisher to readership Obviously the readership to some extent determines what the publishers publish. there is a sense here in which readership gets a vote A sense in which there is a sort of democracy. And there is certainly a kind of accountability with the publishers&#8211;no ex cathedra.  </p>
<p>I think it would be fair to say (and worth saying)  that of the publishing houses, Baker&#8211;the guys who publish your own book&#8211;are probably doing the best job of producing these kind of &#8220;Tweener&#8221; books that you recommend.</p>
<p>But you know, as I was thinking about this last night, it occurred to me that it might be said that today publishers have less power than they did even 10 years ago. And this would be largely due to the influence that blogs have upon public thinking. Blogs are not moderated by any publishers. I think an analogous scenario might be the rise of Independent film Due to the better accessibility, but high quality, of digital media.</p>
<p>Phil Cooke makes the point that today, largely due to Internet media it is becoming less and less about making money and more about influence.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m suggesting is that with the coming of the digital age, the power of those who possess the &#8220;keys to the kingdom&#8221; (e.g. the publishing houses) is diminishing in power. That is not to say that they are completely without power. Nor is it to say that they are without significant power. But what I am saying is that it seems that the balance of power is becoming more and more equally distributed. Every one, now,can be an author and a publisher. It is not up to the publishers who visits your blog. </p>
<p>But the publishers do control, to some extent, the amount of traffic that gets to your blog, and thus the influence of your blog.  There are also book tours and so on and so forth. </p>
<p>anyway I just wanted to share these thoughts.  Thanks for writing.</p>
<p>blessings&#8230;</p>
<p>Adam</p>
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