I found this post while researching Tim Keller and his church. Our Bible study group has been studying his & Redeemer Presbyterian Church’s “Gospel Christianity” series, and I wanted to provide more of an introduction to the group, as some were having questions about whose teaching we were studying. As a whole, the study has been encouraging and enlightening for me, and I know several friends have been impacted by viewing the Gospel differently than before.

I just had one thought while reading your post (apart from appreciating your anecdote Thanks for that– I always enjoy those “coincidental” moments) –and that is, it is wonderful that you are in a church that has supported your growth and development in ministry until now, to the point where you are actually thinking more about what is truly missional, what would work best, etc… I say praise God for that, and continue to seek Him for where to go next, and if indeed He would have you stay, I’m sure your diversity of thought/opinion would be necessary for the body where you’re at

In Christ,
Kristen

Here’s a funny anecdote -
As I was reading the original post by David, I heard my phone go off, I had received an sms. Still sitting in front of the screen, I open my phone to see a new message from my Senior Pastor (I am part of a new satellite plant of a larger church). The message was a reminder of a key leader’s meeting that is being held tonight, where we will be discussing “Outreaches, how to attract new people to church…” LOL. If there was every any doubt in my mind that our church goes by an attractional model, it is now well and truly gone! I laughed as I read it… oh the irony.

While the timing was comical, it also challenged me. Through all of my reading on the missional church, I am struggling to reconcile my desire to be a part of this new way of thinking (or, movement), with my current situation. The last thing I want to do is jump ship on a whim. But how do I remain in a church that runs in the very way I am beginning to disagree with? Like many others, I am not saying the mega-chjurch model is entirely wrong. It definitely sees results. I just feel more and more pulled towards the missional model and feel that at some point God wants me to operate at this level.

So, what do I do? I am not on staff at my church, but quite involved, so I can’t just leave. And I don’t feel the Spirit telling me to do that either. I kind of feel like I’m in no-man’s land; I continue to serve and honour my leaders, but I continue to feel like I’m on a different page. Any advice? Don’t worry, I’m mature enough to just read it and not make any big decisions based on somebody’s opinion on the internet. But I would still appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Jess

Your Deutero-Keller comment was the most fun I’ve had in days. Put me down for a color that indicates ‘highly likely’ as well…as well as ‘completely agree with said text.’

Luther Seminary professor Christian Scharen notes it and gives the link to the NYT obituary:

In His Dying, Avery Dulles Teaches About the Good of Infirmity

Its hard to argue for a vision isn’t it? Our minds are captive to a certain way of thinking and we bend ourselves backwards in justifying it.

You know, I keep wondering whether none other than Niccolò Machiavelli is right when he says “Nothing is more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than achieving a new order of things.”

I hope not…but it does feel like it.

I really appreciated Dan Kimball’s clarification. I think his point of measuring health by various criteria, not just numbers, is helpful. It seems Dr. Keller has basically echoed Dan’s viewpoint that different church models will have different strengths. But I’d like to comment on Dan’s statement that, “I think that it is harder for smaller churches to make new converts/disciples made, but they do a good job of the maturing of already believers.”

I question the implicit definition of “mature” in that statement. I can’t see how we can say these people in smaller churches are becoming mature if they aren’t also making disciples through conversion (even if this happens over Fitch’s hypothetical 5 year incubation period). This point can be made on both sides of the ecclesiological coin that Dan presents:
What kind of conversions are being made in large churches if they aren’t maturing?
What kind of maturity is achieved in smaller churches if it doesn’t lead to conversions?
It seems to me that both ways of speaking about conversion and maturity are flawed.