Comments on: The Witness of the Church to the Gay/Lesbian Peoples – Miss California U S A and the Politics of Sexual Redemption http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/ Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:37:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: jim http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-17832 jim Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:07:18 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-17832 I also thought Fitch did a great job of explaining how he was using her as an example. I agree with him. Here is what I still wrestle over... I have a hard time believing that a 20 something year-old beauty pageant contestant with fake boobs, is the picture of what is wrong with evangelicals. She was asked a question about what she thought about gay marriage (great set-up) and then attacked for having a position that differs from the status quo. What should she have said? Can she not disagree with popular opinion because she has struggled sexually? Are we really reduced to this kind of logic to "fix" evangelical inconsistencies? If someone labeled the GLBT community in a similar fashion they would be considered a bigot. Where is the consistency (I am talking about in our own evangelical house). There is far too much wrong with us. Too much that rally matters. It is far too hip to throw stones today, as long as you throw them at your own house. I agree Jesus took some serious shots at the Pharisees. I see fewer shots at his own disciples. Honest truth - yes. Speaking about compassion... How compassionate would Jesus be to a sexually confused and insecure woman being laughed at and mocked for saying what she believes about gay marriage? I doubt if he would expose and exploit her on his blog. I also thought Fitch did a great job of explaining how he was using her as an example. I agree with him.

Here is what I still wrestle over… I have a hard time believing that a 20 something year-old beauty pageant contestant with fake boobs, is the picture of what is wrong with evangelicals. She was asked a question about what she thought about gay marriage (great set-up) and then attacked for having a position that differs from the status quo. What should she have said? Can she not disagree with popular opinion because she has struggled sexually? Are we really reduced to this kind of logic to “fix” evangelical inconsistencies? If someone labeled the GLBT community in a similar fashion they would be considered a bigot. Where is the consistency (I am talking about in our own evangelical house).

There is far too much wrong with us. Too much that rally matters. It is far too hip to throw stones today, as long as you throw them at your own house. I agree Jesus took some serious shots at the Pharisees. I see fewer shots at his own disciples. Honest truth – yes.

Speaking about compassion… How compassionate would Jesus be to a sexually confused and insecure woman being laughed at and mocked for saying what she believes about gay marriage? I doubt if he would expose and exploit her on his blog.

]]> By: jim http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-17815 jim Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:40:15 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-17815 I thought that 'sad believer' has hit a real insight into the new evangelical self-critique. I don't think we mean it this way, but we usually express greater patience and sympathy for the GLBT community and its proponents than for someone who is a "Promise Keeper" or "wild-at-hearter." I understand and even applaud the honest and justifiable criticism of the church. I think that we have the responsibility of integrity with our message and lifestyle. When we need to hear the truth about ourselves... hold nothing back. Now, I would like to hear your critique of the GLBT movement. What do they need to hear? Tell the truth about what you believe. With integrity, hold nothing back. I thought that ’sad believer’ has hit a real insight into the new evangelical self-critique. I don’t think we mean it this way, but we usually express greater patience and sympathy for the GLBT community and its proponents than for someone who is a “Promise Keeper” or “wild-at-hearter.” I understand and even applaud the honest and justifiable criticism of the church. I think that we have the responsibility of integrity with our message and lifestyle. When we need to hear the truth about ourselves… hold nothing back.

Now, I would like to hear your critique of the GLBT movement. What do they need to hear? Tell the truth about what you believe. With integrity, hold nothing back.

]]> By: Reclaiming the Mission » Top Ten Posts 2009: Merry Christmas and a Look Back at This Blog http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-16299 Reclaiming the Mission » Top Ten Posts 2009: Merry Christmas and a Look Back at This Blog Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:53:07 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-16299 [...] 8.) Miss California’s Guffaw About Gays and Lesbians and What We can Learn about Our Missional W...: This post obviously got alot of attention – and it’s a little snippet of my book project coming out next year The End of Evangelicalism? Discerning a New Faithfulness for Mission.  I think this episode reveals much about the lack of an embodied witness to sexual redmeption in evangelicalism and what that does to the way we relate to gays and lesbians. [...] [...] 8.) Miss California’s Guffaw About Gays and Lesbians and What We can Learn about Our Missional W…: This post obviously got alot of attention – and it’s a little snippet of my book project coming out next year The End of Evangelicalism? Discerning a New Faithfulness for Mission.  I think this episode reveals much about the lack of an embodied witness to sexual redmeption in evangelicalism and what that does to the way we relate to gays and lesbians. [...]

]]> By: Homosexuality and the Church by David Fitch | Based on a True Story http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-10275 Homosexuality and the Church by David Fitch | Based on a True Story Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:07:47 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-10275 [...] is another needed post to this conversation. This one is by David Fitch and nails it. Thanks for writing this David. He [...] [...] is another needed post to this conversation. This one is by David Fitch and nails it. Thanks for writing this David. He [...]

]]> By: davidfitch http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-9565 davidfitch Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:46:38 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-9565 Sad Believer, ' yeah, ok, I think you have a point. What I should have made more clear, and believe me I truly do approach my analysis this way, is that Ms California is more an example/ a symbol of who we have become as evangelicals. She is a product of evangelicalism, even though I don't know the details of her upbrining. Her language gives her away as to her formation. So I should have made more explicit, that this is not so much a critique of her personally, it is a critique of the formation she is a product of. I think it's an important distinction that I should have made a bigger deal of. Thanks for the corrective criticism. I needed it... Sad Believer, ‘
yeah, ok, I think you have a point. What I should have made more clear, and believe me I truly do approach my analysis this way, is that Ms California is more an example/ a symbol of who we have become as evangelicals. She is a product of evangelicalism, even though I don’t know the details of her upbrining. Her language gives her away as to her formation. So I should have made more explicit, that this is not so much a critique of her personally, it is a critique of the formation she is a product of. I think it’s an important distinction that I should have made a bigger deal of. Thanks for the corrective criticism. I needed it…

]]> By: Sad Believer http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-9556 Sad Believer Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:37:09 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-9556 I'm all for discussing things as a whole and issues and problems, but where is the compassion for this girl? What did you say and do when you were her age without the education and understanding you now have? Do you think lashing out at a young woman like this for her view is going to sway others to your view point who are not already there? What would you do if simply for sharing what you were taught were turned into a young woman used as a pawn for a culture war overnight? You have many great points and things to consider, but how are we as believers any different than anyone else if we show no compassion? I know too many people hurt by believers who have attacked other believers and judged them and this hits a raw spot. Yes, liberals and alternative life style people have been the victim of attacks by believers for too long. Yet, God help us if we start turning on young women in the church who have learned what we and the culture around us have taught them next. I’m all for discussing things as a whole and issues and problems, but where is the compassion for this girl?

What did you say and do when you were her age without the education and understanding you now have?

Do you think lashing out at a young woman like this for her view is going to sway others to your view point who are not already there?

What would you do if simply for sharing what you were taught were turned into a young woman used as a pawn for a culture war overnight?

You have many great points and things to consider, but how are we as believers any different than anyone else if we show no compassion?

I know too many people hurt by believers who have attacked other believers and judged them and this hits a raw spot.

Yes, liberals and alternative life style people have been the victim of attacks by believers for too long.

Yet, God help us if we start turning on young women in the church who have learned what we and the culture around us have taught them next.

]]> By: jeff http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-8931 jeff Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:55:22 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-8931 David, I am a pastor of a church within the pentecostal ranks. I am dealing with this very issue of accepting those within the gay community into the local church. Most of the congregation could not receive my heart on the matter if I "came out" on how i really feel. I have shared from the pulpit and privately to some degree on the subject to my constituents but I am not openly declaring it from the "roof tops", so to speak. I also realize that the church has been influenced through decades and even centuries of certain dogma and thus creates a sort of "victimization of the church" due to that dogma. There is no excuse for not loving people as they are, but this might be an approach some might consider when contimplating getting into the subject within their faith communities. I'm still struggling with the issue and just how strongly I can "preach" my heart on the issue as a whole. The church is full of broken people, to push to strongly in one direction, iether way, could, in some ways, do a disservice to both. Compassion and wisdom are the order of the day! David, I am a pastor of a church within the pentecostal ranks. I am dealing with this very issue of accepting those within the gay community into the local church. Most of the congregation could not receive my heart on the matter if I “came out” on how i really feel. I have shared from the pulpit and privately to some degree on the subject to my constituents but I am not openly declaring it from the “roof tops”, so to speak.
I also realize that the church has been influenced through decades and even centuries of certain dogma and thus creates a sort of “victimization of the church” due to that dogma. There is no excuse for not loving people as they are, but this might be an approach some might consider when contimplating getting into the subject within their faith communities.
I’m still struggling with the issue and just how strongly I can “preach” my heart on the issue as a whole. The church is full of broken people, to push to strongly in one direction, iether way, could, in some ways, do a disservice to both.
Compassion and wisdom are the order of the day!

]]> By: Sara http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-8585 Sara Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:53:55 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-8585 I really appreciate this blog post as it take this issue so much deeper than most are willing to go -- admitting that WE (evangelicals) have a problem with the whole way we have been approaching sex and everything related to it. I have so many thoughts on this issue but no time to formulate them within this comment so I just leave it at a "thanks!". I really appreciate this blog post as it take this issue so much deeper than most are willing to go — admitting that WE (evangelicals) have a problem with the whole way we have been approaching sex and everything related to it. I have so many thoughts on this issue but no time to formulate them within this comment so I just leave it at a “thanks!”.

]]> By: Jamie Arpin-Ricci http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-8580 Jamie Arpin-Ricci Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:41:44 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-8580 Thanks David. I am reading this moments before going into a meeting with the couple and one of their parents. This is precisely what I have said to them. I don't think they will listen, but I think it is important that our community stand firm on this. Your prayers are welcome. I also agree with you about "civil unions". We are paying a high price for letting the government get into the marriage business (and like yourself, I am not simply referring to same sex unions). We sold our birthright for a bowl of pottage. Peace, Jamie Thanks David. I am reading this moments before going into a meeting with the couple and one of their parents. This is precisely what I have said to them. I don’t think they will listen, but I think it is important that our community stand firm on this. Your prayers are welcome.

I also agree with you about “civil unions”. We are paying a high price for letting the government get into the marriage business (and like yourself, I am not simply referring to same sex unions). We sold our birthright for a bowl of pottage.

Peace,
Jamie

]]> By: David Fitch http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-witness-of-the-church-to-the-gaylesbian-peoples-%e2%80%93-miss-california-u-s-a-and-the-politics-of-sexual-redemption/comment-page-1/#comment-8565 David Fitch Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:48:08 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=577#comment-8565 Jamie, i think the marriage, the preparation for marriage in community, the ceremony, the commitments, and the ongoing living in marriage, are all spiritual formation - sanctification. This whole process is a witness to the Christian subordination of desire to Hs purposes beyond ourselves, His Mission, the redemption of all creation. We have a process we have been doing for a long while. it is one piece in fostering a sexually redemptive culture ... i think those who do "evangelistic" marriages make a significant error ... setting up those marriages for failure, as well as setting the table for a sexually non- redeeming culture in the church community. This is why i am for "civil unions" ...and not just for same sex unions outside the church, i think we must distinguish between Christian marriage and civil unions inside the church and make a legitimate distinction to choose one over the other. Thanks for the words ... erleclaire ... good to hear from you ... i hope you find much healing and redemption in your church home Jamie,
i think the marriage, the preparation for marriage in community, the ceremony, the commitments, and the ongoing living in marriage, are all spiritual formation – sanctification. This whole process is a witness to the Christian subordination of desire to Hs purposes beyond ourselves, His Mission, the redemption of all creation. We have a process we have been doing for a long while. it is one piece in fostering a sexually redemptive culture …
i think those who do “evangelistic” marriages make a significant error … setting up those marriages for failure, as well as setting the table for a sexually non- redeeming culture in the church community.
This is why i am for “civil unions” …and not just for same sex unions outside the church, i think we must distinguish between Christian marriage and civil unions inside the church and make a legitimate distinction to choose one over the other.
Thanks for the words …
erleclaire … good to hear from you … i hope you find much healing and redemption in your church home

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