In the last two posts, I spoke some caution towards what I see as overreactions in the missional church conversation – the reaction against all buildings and the reaction against sacred space (art and symbol). I think in each case missional authors are rightfully concerned about the dangers of Christendom models of church. In doing so however, some go to the extreme ignoring how buildings and art can be incarnational in themselves. Before I leave the subject, “Contrary Thoughts on Being Incarnational,” I’d like to speak caution one more time towards just another potential overreaction – the reaction against the importance of the worship gathering. In missional church, I see the great emphasis on what happens external to the gathered people, in the world. Often I hear, “let’s look for where God is already working, and let’s join up with it!” The missional priority is the joining of God’s people with what God is already doing in the world, and a corresponding downplay on the gathering of Sunday morning (or Sun evening or Saturday for that matter). Hirsch and Frost say for instance, that in Christendom, “the church bids people to come and hear the gospel in the holy confines of the church and its community … ” The mode and impulse is inward (p. 41, The Shaping of Things to Come). They in turn suggest the mode and impulse should be the opposite – outward. And although never spoken, many pick up from this that “the gathering” somehow becomes secondary to the mission of God in the world.
I certainly endorse Frost & Hirsch and their assessment of what happens when a church becomes attractional. The dreaded “attractional” model has been made even worse when the practices of worship become commodified into a goods and service for which Christians shop for and consume. There is an all out loss of missional incarnational presence. And so I heartily endorse the engagement of mission where our people already are! I heartily endorse the church’s presence manifest in the contexts of mission where the strangers live, the poor struggle, and the oppressed live enslaved to capitalism etc. I endorse the trashing of programming missions and instead focus on daily mission in the contexts where people already are.
Nevertheless, I wonder if this missional mantra against the attractional can inadvertently stigmatize the importance of the gathering? I believe that many, after reading Frost and Hirsch, are prone to polarize the missional versus attractional in such a way to devalue the worship gathering as a secondary unessential shaping event to the missional identity of the church. Does anyone else see this danger?
And so, out of this final angst towards potential extreme reactionary versions of missional church, I offer the following four rants. I suggest that indeed the gathering itself is incarnational, the Body, the presence of Christ in flesh and blood in the world, and the basis of being “sent out” missionally in the world. In this sense, the gathering is necessarily “the priority for” but not “the majority of” (not even close) what missional churches do. Here’s 4 quick rants.
1.) You cannot have a missional people without formation!! Missional people do not “grow on trees,” fall from the sky, or “spring forth ex- nihilo, like its natural or something to just be missional. In fact one’s vision of reality must constantly be shaped by the reality of God, who He is, and what He is doing in the world in order to be missional. Deleuze has taught us, we’re all being shaped into and by “the forces.” It is unrealistic … to think that anyone can come out of a consumeristic therapeutic me-first culture and somehow be shaped, motivated, directed and enlivened with the vision for God’s mission in the world apart from the gathering of God’s people to worship, reenact and proclaim the Story of God and His Mission in Christ into the world.
The worship gathering therefore is a priority for the missional way. In worship we are formed and shaped to be missional.
2.) “They” say we need to join up with what God is doing … but in fact how would we know what God is doing out in the world? Unless we assume that God is at work in everything. Indeed there are plenty of Christians who believe God is at work in the violence of the Iraq war, or programs to reduce welfare. I just say this to show that it is not at all obvious what God is doing out in the world. And I suggest that those who believe God is at work in War or the reduction of welfare state have not sufficiently worshiped God in a gathering that shapes our vision for who God is, where He is taking the world and our role in it. Indeed, community and worship is necessary for any kind of discerning where God is working. It is what makes possible the missional transformation we seek. As Yoder says, “Transformation is meaningful … only when those who call for it have a place to stand.” (Authentic Transformation p. 74 This gets back to the inherent Reformed nature of much missional thinking. Because there is a heavy reliance on Common Grace in all of culture, there is less of a need for a discerning process, or a communal discernment which for the Anabaptist makes possible missional engagement in the first place).
3.) The Eucharist forms us into a politics of peace, unity and reconciliation. The Eucharist helps us see that we are One, born out of sacrifice for mission “til He comes.” As Hauerwas tells us, it is the Eucharist which trains us how to think about “ownership,” war, capital punishment and care for the poor (See In Good Company page 161-63). I don’t believe you can be missional without a Eucharisticly formed politics.
4.) Lastly, yes we have a big problem with the attractional model. Anyone who has read me will know I agree with that. But it is inherent in the logic of the gathering, that WE ARE SENT OUT! First we gather, then we are shaped by Word (Confession, Prayer, Affirmation) and the Table, THEN WE ARE SENT OUT into mission. The whole logic of the gathering is formation for the sending. The gathering therefore is prior to actual sending out as that which forms the base for mission.
So let us not neglect the importance of the gathering for being missional. Let us be intentional about our “gatherings,” that they not be attractional, but instead be formational for the sending of the church into mission.
Peace to all this Advent
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David,
Good thoughts on why gathering is different from the attractional model but inherently missional.
O kay, suppose I’ve bought all you have to say, but know of no gathering in the area remotly embodying the misional model you proclaim. I could come out to Life On the Vine, did, but logisticly, it’s only a place I canget a fix on Sunday’s. What’s a guy and his wife in the wilderness supposed to do, other nthan spell check first. I don’t hink I’m called to settle and I’m tired of beating my head against the wall.
Mgpuma
I’ve seen a number of churches speak a Gather, Grow, Go chronology in their vision mantras. But doesn’t Jesus seem to lead His disciples in Gathering, Growing, & Going all at the same time?
Does it have to be chronological? Does Growing have to follow Gathering? Does Going have to follow Growing? If so, then what benchmarks release a Gathered person to grow or a Grown person to Go? It seems to me that this kind of linear / chronological worldview leaves Western Christians often feeling inadequate or not responsible for Going (or Growing for that matter) & causes them to remain immature & ineffective in their spirituality & missional living.
Good thoughts John,
I think I disagree with the “Grow” word… for in each gathering we are “Shaped” (and of course this includes growth). And so this in no way implies we need to have matured to a certain point to then serve in missional context. I do think there is a priority (call it linear if you insist)to the gathering which makes possible being sent. I take Acts 13 when the church in Antioch sent out Paul and Barnabas as the paradym by which the community becomes the locus for discerning and sending in the Spirit. Don’t misunderstand me, I am not saying it always looks like this (seperate 2 guys for a specific mission), it is the theology which stands behind Acts 13 which shows the centrality of community to mission.
Blessings
John, can I second that emotion. This is so wierd because I was just reading Shaping of things… and in the part about the church. They use a picture of an equilateral triangle for church with the sides:
1) Communion (Christ, Gathering, Formation)
2) Community (one another, Growing)
3) Commission (World, Missional)
Wouldn’t it blow your mind to see 33% of your church’s budget, 33% of the staff hours/responsibility, and 33% of the church’s activities dedicated to missiona activities! Wow!
Powerful Model
But are there any churches who wish to move this way? and will they call a pastor or allow their leadership to move this way?
David,
I’ve enjoyed all 3 parts so far, even if I may not agree with you in all the details. I’d just like to get some clarification on your rant point #3 concerning the Eucharist. Specifically, can you please expand on what you mean by “I don’t believe you can be missional without a Eucharisticly formed politics.”
Thanks,
Paul
I recall Plymouth Brethren elder Paul Stevens talking about the rhythm of gathering and dispersion many years ago while at Regent College. He took off on Paul’s body metaphor. The blood is oxygenated by the lungs and pumped outward by the heart, it does its work of carrying oxygen and nutrition, then is spent and returns inward to be given life again. I love the analogy. And I think there is something important about the rhythm concept itself in moving us beyond polarities and Greek (modern and dualistic?) thinking.
David, thanks for the wonderful post. I appreciate the depth of your thoughts…especially about eucharistic politics.
Robert Benson in Living Prayer suggests that if prayer is to become living we are to live according to the prayer of the eucharist. the prayer is to be “taken, blessed, broken and shared”. Often in our ecclesiologies we hang on to the three admirable elemts of the prayer, but rarely engage what it means to be broken. His point is that we can not truly be shared unless we are broken. I think there may be somewhat of a connection…
thanks again for the great writing.
john
John Lynch said “Does it have to be chronological? Does Growing have to follow Gathering? Does Going have to follow Growing? If so, then what benchmarks release a Gathered person to grow or a Grown person to Go? It seems to me that this kind of linear / chronological worldview leaves Western Christians often feeling inadequate or not responsible for Going (or Growing for that matter) & causes them to remain immature & ineffective in their spirituality & missional living.
Dave already answered this to a degree, but I think the answer is Yes, there is a certain chronology. We gather to be formed — or re-formed — into a follower of Christ. How that looks and how God shapes us as a community depends on the body we happen to be a part of.
The “ex-nihilo” model is in fact the Western model that Dave is addressing (if I read him right). In other words, in many cases, the Western Church has been formed “ex-nihilo,” from a western, democratic and individualistic model where we come to “truths,” understandings and conclusions about ourselves without the benefit of the gathering and communal eyes of the people who really know us and who can speak truth into our lives.
We often confuse “gifts” with “talents,” “discernment” with “feelings” and “prayer” with “contemplation” because we’ve been formed by a culture of individualism rather than a culture of communal Christendom. Our individualistic nature will not allow for outside influence (as ironic as that is). After all, who knows me better than me? We are a self-help society and a walk through any Christian bookstore makes it abundantly clear that the Church addresses the Christian Life no different (in essence) than the World addresses Secular Life.
So, the community (“Wherever two or more are gathered in my name…”) is where we become known, where truth is spoken into our lives, where gifts are discerned, discovered and affirmed, and growth as a body into spiritual adulthood takes place. Out of this place, the gathering place, is where we gather ’round, lay on hands and send out the disciple on his mission…with the blessing of the body and the Holy Spirit as his guide on the often lonely journey. He is not an individual anymore. He brings with him the wisdom of the ages and the Comfort of not being alone.
T.Pacey
D.F.,
Enjoyed the post again…but I don’t know this alley so well…so I don’t have too much to say. I’m enjoying the conversation that’s happening.
Jason
john, that is an old prayer, echoed over time by many saints and mystics. One of my favorites was in Oswald Chambers devotional, that “we may be broken bread and poured out wine” for Christ. Any theology that isn’t cruciform isn’t Christian.
David, I’m not sure I disagree with anything you’ve said, but I want to push back a bit, for the sake of finding clarity.
Worship and “missionality” aren’t two separate activities but are two movements of the same dance. The Church exists as the worshipping community and the sent community…our various activities represent both of these realities–these impulses.
I say this because it would be very easy to fall into one-over-against-the-other syndrome. I’m not sure you’ve done that here, but it you could be interpreted as privilege worship over mission. In other words, it would be easy to say we are PRIMARILY a community that worships (this is perhaps the classic definition) or we are PRIMARILY a community that is “sent”–many within the missional movement fall into this, including me. I’ve been guilty. It’s just that the idea that we participate in God’s missional activity is so nifty and refreshing; it is easy to fall off the deep end.
I don’t believe that the one purpose of the Church is to worship God. There is a second, complimentary purpose: to embody Christ’s presence on earth. In our humanity, we worship God. Inasmuch as we are the Body of Christ and filled with the Spirit, we also embody God’s presence in the world. By loving our neighbor, we love God. So any definition of worship that doesn’t include an external movement into the world is an incomplete definition. The reverse can also be said–any mission that doesn’t have worship as the ultimate goal, and isn’t an act of worship itself, is incomplete.
Mark … I see a couple things going on here … but I too cannot distinguish worship-formation-gathering-from the extension of that into mission. I cannot see how the Christian life can exist- one without the other – going both ways. The gathering however is prior for we cannot begin mission ex nihilo… we cannot magically appear at the point of mission without a gathering that shapes us to see this point, shapes us in character to respond to this point, and allows us to talk so as to pray and enjoin the work of God for this point where ver iut might be … I believe in post Christendom, it is hard to escape the anabaptist vision .. I think you and I have sympathies with the Anabaptist vision.
Mark … I see a couple things going on here … but I too cannot distinguish worship-formation-gathering-from the extension of that into mission. I cannot see how the Christian life can exist- one without the other – going both ways. The gathering however is prior for we cannot begin mission ex nihilo… we cannot magically appear at the point of mission without a gathering that shapes us to see this point, shapes us in character to respond to this point, and allows us to talk so as to pray and enjoin the work of God for this point where ver iut might be … I believe in post Christendom, it is hard to escape the anabaptist vision .. I think you and I have sympathies with the Anabaptist vision.
While gathering together is logically prior to our going out into the world, I’d like to maintain that there is a sense in which the reverse is true. I’m probably jumping in over my head at this point (and for those of you who aren’t uber theology nerds, I apologize) but it seems to me that our “ecclesial being” is based in our “sentness.” I believe that God’s Being is established perichoretically; God “exists” because of the Triune inter-agency and mutual-interpenetration. We, the Church, exist because of our participation within God’s agency. In my mind the implications for this are that our “sentness” comes before our “gatheredness.” Sure, it doesn’t work out this way in practice, but I’d like to maintain that there is a real sense in which we are sent as Christ was sent establishes our community, rather than flowing out of community. Perhaps I’m making things too complicated (and indeed I feel that I am), but the question for me is how does this understanding of reality (if one buys into it) shape our understanding of worship and mission? These two activities are perhaps best understood as our participation within the Triune life–two movements of the same perichoretic dance. We certainly must gather and have our identity as disciples formed before we understand what it means to “do” mission. But taken too far, there can be a reduction of mission to merely doing evangelistic stuff in response to what God has done in our lives. Mission is more than that–it is a participation in God’s self. We are the embodiment of Christ into the world, as he is present in and among us, reconciling a broken world to his father.
Mark, you said it yourself. “We” are the embodiment… Christ, it seems to me, first calls us to Himself in his particular roll as the Head of the body. We are called into the community of Christ. There we are schooled and built up in His likeness so that we can be sent. So that’s how it seems to me, called into the body before we’re sent out to get more parts.
Mgpuma
It’s possible I have misunderstood your heart, but at risk of being misunderstood for misunderstanding the gathering always following the incarnational transformation of Christ followers. The gathering is important of course, but the misson remains of supreme importance and all others flow out of her.
The gathering has crippled the mission of the church when seen as more important than the mission. You must see this, don’t you? Then again, I may have misunderstood or missed something here.
You might want to change your title because it is NOT scripturally accurate. And, I am for the mission being first and we are brothers and partners in this mission. Mission first, gathering a bi-product! But a necessary bi-product indeed.
I do agree we need not throw the baby our with the bathwater, but let’s get off our butts and back into the world where we belong as the supreme act of following Jesus Christ.
What do you say about that?
Make the Mission of disciples fulfilling the purposes of the Great Commission and the gathering will happen -at least that’s what happened in in my experience.
As Len said, the concept, as it relates to the ongoing pattern, is rhythm. Coming and going. Breathing in and out. Trying to assign a priority is simply mistaken, at least from a pragmatic standpoint. It’s clear that collected and dispersed are both necessary, both natural. All of us have seen or been in a church where one of these aspects was missing or distorted. When that is the case it simply needs to be “fixed.”
From a purely abstract perspective it would seem that being called/gathered must precede being sent. Being sent implies a starting point. But again, the moment we get past the abstract it is somewhat pointless to argue. We step in to a rhythm or dance that is already happening.
(For what its worth I think Brother Fitch is right on the money.)
Bill, I think you’re right. It is a rhythm started a while back. I think Mr Fitch would say it’s a story we are called into.
Mgpuma
Guys and Gals, of course there is a gathering into the family of God and that is assumed on my part. But gathering and going are not even close to being on the same level with God. Sorry!
However, Jesus didn’t have a church service to give the Great Commission mandate. He did gather but in His gathering He was instilling the purposes of His coming and the followers need to follow by fulfiling His Great Commission purposes.
Further, the mandate throughout Scripture is “Be fruitful and multiply” and the Great Commission is the culmination of that very basic and most important purpose for our life ministry – to fulfill what Jesus commanded from the beginning and His redemptive purposes for coming to earth as human and divine.
I object to the gathering in the sense that so many define. Do you want to know why? It has become an excuse for not going. Gather of course, but let’s not just keep doing what has led to our own demise. Make the main thing as commanded to “be fruitful and multiply and go and make disciples.
Dave and others, be careful not to let Christ followers off the hook on the going as the main thig. We gather to go and they are not equals.
By the way, it’s not just the attractional model that misses the “going out”.
Think of it this way. Gather of course – but somehow Christ followers need to grow beyon being Christ following sitters and we need to develop authentic Christ following disciple multipliers. “Be fruitful and multiply and go and make disciples” are supreme priorities.
Read the Scriptures in light of this Manifold Purpose of God – “Be fruitful and multiply.”
I have more to say and I’m sure you will have more to say also!
Mark,
I certainly am with you on the perichoresis of the persons of the Godhead .. that the church’s particpation in that life of God is its existence … and thereby the church’s “sentness” precedes its gathering … This is wonderful …Yet where I am most familiar with this theology is either Orthodox or certain liturgical traditions who see that the foundation of entering into this Trinitarian life is in the Eucharist i.e. the gathered joined together by His Body .. from which we are “sent out” as an extension of His continuing presense.
I believe the danger goes both ways .. making mission merely an evangelistic program tacked on to an attractionally organized gathering … but also .. dispersing the mission apart from any identity or formation into the Trinitarian perichoresis … Excellent discussion!
For Bob Carder … I think I get your point? Yes, we as a church have been unfaithful to the missional purpose of our calling … “our sentness.” But just how do you propose to make these disciples missional without a gathering? From whence come the missional people sent out into the world, out of the sky? and what are the purposes of your gathering since you still allow a place for gathering. I see the struggles many missional church planters have, when they are reticient to place significance on the gathering, that they simply have no place where disciples can be sufficiently formed into missional people – their church efforts die…
I think most post modern minded missional leaders/pastors recognize the central importance of spiritual formation. It seems to me your potential danger is toi emphasize mission so much, and ignore the formation that makes it possible … eucharist, prayer, the proclamation of the Triune God …
Blessings … DF
David,
I think it is possible to shape disciples from mission apart from a gathering–at least in the normal sense of the word. If I spent every week meeting with 10 separate individuals for the express purpose of formation, I could feasibly equip them for mission. It might not be the best way, but it is a way. And with my low-churchy understanding of Eucharist, I could potentially argue that each of those meetings was indeed Eucharistic, if we meet in the name of Christ and share a meal. This is still mission flowing from gathering, but most folks wouldn’t think of this sort of activity as “gathering.” I TEND to think that this sort of gathering should be more foundational than the Sunday event–smaller clusters of folks meeting to help encourage Christian embodiment in a place.
At Missio Dei, we have entered into a process of discernment during which we aren’t “formally” gathering. But I still see almost everyone as much as before! And when we meet (or have them over for dinner), we pray and talk about who Jesus is and how we can live the Gospel. Often these sorts of discussions happen at Hard Times Cafe, which is our neighborhood (parish).
Over the next few months we’ll be increasing the number of our formal gatherings as people affirm our Rule of Faith, but one could argue that if we never instituted any formal gatherings or structures, we’d still be a Eucharistic community.
It seems silly to argue which is more important. It’s like arguing which gift is more important. Let those who gather and thos who go do so to the glory of God, and not get all puffed up because they nthink the do the more important thing.
Besides, everybody knows theore important thing. Now if I can find my locust I can eat in peace.
It seems silly to argue which is more important. It’s like arguing which gift is more important. Let those who gather and thos who go do so to the glory of God, and not get all puffed up because they nthink the do the more important thing.
Besides, everybody knows theore important thing. Now if I can find my locust I can eat in peace.
Hey Mark ..
I think I can agree … a meal … together … especially more than one … done regularly surely constitutes spiritual formation, especially if you’re a mennonite. But I cannot go all the way with you … for there is something profoundly historical, deep,and real in the presense of the Eucharist gathering … where we are defined and constituted into the very peace, justice, life together. I cannot yet buy the idea of nomadic prophetic wanderings in packs or bands of people that do nat gather to be fornmed into His Body-ly presense … I feel some of the emergent thinkers are on this page..I have some sympathies … but in the end I am with gerhad Lofink … God’s operative approach is through the sociological embodiment of salvtion in a people which then invades a culture …. Once these bands take shape in a way of life ,,, then I am on board.
I have thoroughly enjoyed your challenges … and thansk to Len for his contributions about rhythym … I get that … and have seen it in real life…
Blessings
Fair enough. I’ll have to think about it some more. I’m certainly not about to dump the regular gathering of the saints for nomadic prophetic wanderings in bands of people. I think your use of the term “sociological embodiment of salvation in a people” is excellent. It is the lack of this within parachurches and other groups that often leave me skeptical of those parachurches that try to do the “functions” of a church without realizing the implications of such a move. I think we are in general agreement, though we disagree, perhaps in some of the nuances here and there. Thanks for a great discussion.
Dave, you walked right into this one. How do we disciple so that the disciple goes and reproduces. Well, I walk with the “person of peace” God places in my life and I disciple by teaching and modeling what it means to live incarnationally in the world. We continue the relationship as long as it takes one on one, I teach and model what Jesus taught and I teach and model whatever the Holy Spirit leads me to share and model. You know that as disciples reproduce disciples there will come a time when the movement spins out of our control – a good thing. As I disciple and as my disciple reproduces and the process continues, what I teach and model goes down the line and a whole army of Christ following disciple multipliers engages our culture and our culture see Jesus and not just a church on every corner trying to fill her up.
We gather of course, but that’s not the most important thing, the mission of living incarnationally so the world can see and receive Jesus is.
We don’t need another reshaping of the church -we need a whole new Church where all believers are empowered and released without our control.
When did we forget to live like Jesus, do what He said, live His teaching, follow the leading of God’s Spirit and “be fruitful and multiply and I’m not speaking of crying babies but instead in the spiritual New Testament sense?
The spiritual formation “model” you speak of seems much the same old thing. Let’s quit putting on new dressings and let’s get to work by living Jesus and fulfilling His Great Commission purposes.
Isn’t someone amazed at how little we value the purposes of the Great Commission? Where are the Christ following incarnational disciple multipliers?
Bob,
your one on one assumptions about discipleship ignore what we know abouit the shaping of people’s souils, imaginaions and poilitics. I certainly think one on one mentoring is important, even essential, but impossible apart fom the Body of Christ. For as the apostle said … it takes the whole BODY, all of the gifts working together as an organic whole, “yto preparte God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ might be built up untiul we all reach … matuyrity, attaining to the measure of the fullness of Christ.”(Eph 4:12-13) It seems your emphasis on discpleship requires the gathered people in community one with another.
Peace bro ….
Dave, why does it appear that you resist the implications of all believers obeying the purposes of the Great Commission? Disciples are commanded to make disciples who make disciples. No one is exempt. Every healthy cell reproduces. The manifold purpose of God is to be fruitful and multiply and the Great Commission is the culmination of that grand purpose in a very spiritual sense.
When we gather we share, we look into the Word, we allow the gifts to be expressed and in play, we have the Lord’s supper & we form community. When we disciple one on one we are the Body of Christ united to infiltrate the world with incarnational transformation and obedience to the supreme mandate of God for all.
For the Apostle you say…I would say for Jesus –it was the whole body together fulfilling the purposes of the Great Commission. Gather of course, but it will never be on the same level as obeying God’s manifold purpose “to be fruitful and multiply” and after He rose from the dead, He met with Apostles as if to reemphasize something important and He and gave the Great Commission and Jesus did so with the authority of God, Go – Make disciples -baptise, teach to obey all things….And then He said, “Don’t forget as you go – I will go with you.”
You don’t ever reach maturity until you obey and as soon as one becomes a Christ following believer we walk with them one on one, enfold them into the Christ Body and keep meeting one on one and they are instructed to multiply and when they do you keep one on one contact and then they have one on one contact with their disciple and on and on. Of course they enfold, and the truth is and it is a problem is that enfolding has become the main thing when it is not. So we are dying in America. Let’s try doing what Jesus did and commanded us to do from the beginning of the world. Be fruitful and multiply. Any chicken can gather but it takes work and courage to face the rooster and multiply.
Bold of me? I hope so! Think about it. Let’s flesh it out further.
Bob, ‘
seriously … this is one of those times where I think we keep talking past one another … thanks for the efforts .. but perhaps a cup of coffee might be more fruitful …let’s do it sometime … hopefully …
Peace ..
Hey D.F.,
Enjoyed the post again…and the comments. Learning a lot from the whole thing. This one isn’t quite my alley so much, so I have less to say. I have a quetion (to whoever). I looked up “Anabaptist”, and I can’t figure out what it means exactly. Is it in reference more to an idea of the community of God…a centrality on the body of Christ as His presence here, or it the term “Anabaptist” more in reference to some specific Christian mysticism that I have yet to hear about (despite being a bit of a mystic myself, in a way)? I got the feeling early in my internet search on “Anabaptist” that an understanding of the term would require a higher understanding of a historical period than what I have, and specifically a high understanding of the whole issue/topic of vocation, salvation and the Reformation…and how that issue for us now was shaped by that time. Uuhh…if anyone wants to take the small bit of time to say a lot with a few words…that’s be helpful and fantastic
I recommend that you read the wikipedia article to get a basic understanding of anabaptism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist
Wikipedia is so helpful for this sort of thing. Basically, the way Anabaptist was used in the comments above has a lot to do with the Anabaptist focus on the Church being defined as roughly “a community of disciples who live out the Gospels with Jesus.” Anabaptists often believe that we ought to live out the Sermon on the Mount without watering it down, that we should always follow the leading of the Holy Spirit as it guides the community, that we should forsake the use of political power or violence, that we should live simply, and that the church’s relationship with broader culture is prophetic.
I hope that helps.
If I may be so bold as to mediate between Bob and Dave. I can feel Bob’s frustration. The western church has been meeting and meeting and meeting in a variety of ways, but it’s shriveling up. A big dose of mission is what we need, says Bob. But it comes across as “we gotta work harder” and “do it on your own.”
Dave replies with caution saying that he has heard it over and over again and the church’s main problem is that it is a bunch of disconnected individuals with nothing to offer the pagan world.
Goingback to Hirsch and Frost, they are pushing for not replacing the gathering with going, but equalizing the gathering/growing/going. In that way, our going goes up tenfold, our gathering also increases, and we are still being formed in the gathering.
Dave feels that gathering is the root of the tree that that leads to going and everything else. Can you name anyone that went without first being formed? Bob feels that “gathering” has been done and done, but our efforts in going are pretty wimpy.
Am I close to where you are?
If I may be so bold as to mediate between Bob and Dave. I can feel Bob’s frustration. The western church has been meeting and meeting and meeting in a variety of ways, but it’s shriveling up. A big dose of mission is what we need, says Bob. But it comes across as “we gotta work harder” and “do it on your own.”
Dave replies with caution saying that he has heard it over and over again and the church’s main problem is that it is a bunch of disconnected individuals with nothing to offer the pagan world.
Goingback to Hirsch and Frost, they are pushing for not replacing the gathering with going, but equalizing the gathering/growing/going. In that way, our going goes up tenfold, our gathering also increases, and we are still being formed in the gathering.
Dave feels that gathering is the root of the tree that that leads to going and everything else. Can you name anyone that went without first being formed? Bob feels that “gathering” has been done and done, but our efforts in going are pretty wimpy.
Am I close to where you are?
Thanks Mark,
Interesting…Fraticelli…have you read The Name of the Rose, by Umberto Echo?
And…in general…do differences in Christian folks’ attitude toward vocation and worldliness really stem from theological differences on the Incarnation? What’s the deal there? Is it naive simplification to say that there’s a connection between veiwing Christian activity as more within the workings of the world as being connected to Christ’s actually taking on flesh through Mary? Or is it actual historical and theological truth to say that there is a connection there? On the flip side, is there a connection between a removal of ourselves from the world, and saying different things about the Incarnation that seem to deny what is traditionally understood as his being “fully human”?
I don’t mean to start a big debate…rather I am asking a genuine question. I would actually hope to avoid a debate…
Thanks,
Jason
jason …
On Anabaptist ecclessiology & social ethics, check out the bellweather John Howard Yoder, Priestly Kingdom … there’s a few essays in there that should get you started … as well as his “body Politiucs”…
On your question concerning the use of “incarnation”… your intuitions are good … I have friends in “Radical Orthdoxy” and “Hauerwas” camps who think the use of missional in such places risks a reversion to naive Tillichian correlationalism … and the old protestant mailine mistakes … I think this is not necessary … but maybe more care is needed.
Hurdler .. THANKS that really helps!
And thanks to Len hjlmarlson for his rhythym thot … check out his blog on the blog role .. its always great ..
and Mark … let’s keep talking … I enjoy it and learn from it ..
Thanks to all who helped with this conversation ..
Blessings
Dave, we must meet over coffee, I love your posts. Perhaps then, we’ll see how closely our hearts beat for the purposes of the Great Commission.
Mark, I love your description of your Christ community on the “outside”. I would however, caution you on structure and formalizing what God is doing. You cannot manage or control a movement of God. Please don’t over-structure or box her in to tightly. Jesus is greater than anything that tries to contain Him.
I’m not making assumptions – I am just voicing a concern and whether it fits you or not, then for others, structure less, control less, give it away, don’t program it, and please let the movement of God get out of your control like something running wild for Jesus!
Hurdler, Sorry I sound like I’ve totally disconnected or maybe even alittle!
I’m part of the Missionary Church, Inc, one of the most successful church planting denominations in America with a 90% or so success rate. I work for the general church and I’m contracted out to the Midwest District as a Mission District leader to create a movement of disciple multiplies while letting God build His Church.
I have grave concenrns for our present methods of church planting! That’s another story.
Hurdler you say I sound like “we gotta work harder” and “let’s do it alone” is not the case. We want an out of control missional movement of disciple multipliers as the main thing.
Of course we meet as the body of Christ – but for this church we don’t do it on Sunday -but we do it and the member/disciplers are equipped and released to do the main thing. All are in groups during the week and when we gather together as the Bride/Body of Christ it is awesome. They want to gather but they want to be (represent) Jesus in our city much much more. They understand the main theme of “Being fruitful and multiply” as God commanded.
The truth is we work less because we don’t have to plan large worship events, classes, build large building, maintain huge budgets, pay to run the ministries (which serve in a major way the already reached).
What if you and your people didn’t have to get it all together and spend all those hours and dollars for the event? Instead they rally for the mission and when released the community get’s to see Jesus in their lives and then disciples are born and then the person who led them disciples them to do the same.
Pastor Terry told me he never had such an easy and fun job. As a laymen he worked harder in the church and was so busy he didn’t have time for the world. Now he has all that time he used to spend in church for the reached “mostly” and now uses that time to raise up and release incarnational Christ following disciple multipliers.
It’s actually easier! I pastored 24 years and believe me it is easier and much more fruitful that making the gather first and most important.
We still gather and it is important for us…But!
One more short one.
Since we don’t agree on which is first the chicken or the egg let’s try this.
Let’s gather as we have done really well and let’s keep doing it really well. If it’s the main thing in your mind – make it the main thing. I’m fine -that’s what we’ve always done.
Now that you agree with that. When will we own personally the manifold purpose of God “Be fruitful and multiply” given to every significant leader in the Old Testament? Then Jesus comes along and continues this theme in His life. Then as the risen Savior with all the authority as God he says, Make disciples “Multiply”.
What will we say when we have led churches in the Gathering and the gathering has never gone out in obedience to the purposes of the Great Commission and/or “been fruitful and multiplied?” Do the people you know live incarnationally in the world.
I grieve because we have an entire Church in America satisfied with the gathering as the main thing and the specific mandate throughout History back to Adam has been largely ignored. “Be fruitful and multiply.”
Tell your members to prepare for God’s question. Did you? Why not?
Sound harsh, I hope a little bit! This is so serious – the world does not see Jesus because He’s hidden under the bushel. Will souls be enternally lost, of course.
Can we make a difference? Of course? Will your members do it without an organized outreach program in your church? You know the answer!
Thanks D.F.
Jason
I appreciate your thoughts. As I’ve followed the conversations surrounding missional community and the emerging church, I’ve noticed a tendency toward hype and exaggeration, which can lead us to throw out the good with the bad.
While we may not see an appropriate balance in Frost’s & Hirsch’s book regarding the gathering, I imagine that they live out this balance.
I recently (well, in October) had the opportunity to hear Frost speak and interact with church planters. He talked some about his community, Small Boat, Big Sea, which is a community of about 80 who share a life practice based on the acronym BELLS (Blessing, Eating, Learning, Listening, Sentness) which they also as the guideline for their gathering time once a week. I sensed a strong emphasis from Frost on the gathering time, especially as the place from which the group can be sent out with a connected, unified mission.
He also emphasized the use of building and space. His community has used their building to host art shows for local artists, including offering graphic design, publicity, catering, speaking, and the works for the artists.
I appreciated hearing Frost speak about his experience; it provided a realistic balance for the ideas of his book.
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