OK, so don’t take me too seriously on the title here (the “Real” part) because I do believe full time ministry is a worthy and awesome vocation. But times are changing. Many seminarians aren’t interested in ministry within the structures of large established churches. And denominations no longer have the money it takes to fund a full time salaried pastor to plant a “competing” church in a locale. The only option for many is to lead a missionary venture into a place in need of the gospel. This sounds good right? The problem is that this approach demands (most of the time) that the church planter get a job and be bi-vocational. And this is a hurdle for most people coming out of seminary (not that seminarians are the only people who can do this).
Bi-vocationalism is attractive to many seminarians. For them, the vocational full time pastor job in a church can separate you from Mission. You work and hang out with mostly Christian people all day (and night). Today, there are more and more seminary students who find the structures of the larger churches incompatible with their vision for on-the-ground mission and ministry. The culture is not a churched culture anymore and this form of church is not reaching that culture. The role of the established pastor seems to be like caretaking existing Christians. More and more seminarians therefore come out of seminary feeling like THEY JUST DON’T FIT.
As a result, more and more seminary grads are looking to an alternative option to ministry – the option to take up residence in a neighborhood and “inhabit” it for ministry. We seek a neighborhood nearby where the need for the gospel is especially evident. We seek God and His call to move there and take up residence. We get normal jobs, live life together, get to know our neighbors, hang out in the coffee shops, the laundry-mats, the McDonalds (wink wink), the bars, the local school meetings, the civic association, the places where hurting people are. Learn to be intentional in the way you organize your life, so that nothing is a burden, just a rhythm. Gather a people into the rhythms of God (worship, fellowship, conflict discernment, serving the poor, prayer for the sick, eating meals of fellowship, etc. etc.). We learn how to come alongside the poor, vulnerable, broken, hurting. We learn how to minister, pray with, supply support to, encourage and even disciple and be discipled by the poor in the process. We lead by coming alongside other leaders who also move in and together we use all our leadership skills, and spiritual gifts as well as preaching and teaching to lead this community. Each of us puts in 10-15 hours of work (the equivalent of on full time senior pastor). We do all this as part of a regular sustainable rhythm of life for years and watch God transform people and neighborhoods in Christ. NONE OF THIS IS A PROGRAM!
OF COURSE THERE IS ONE HURDLE FOR MOST SEMINARIANS TO THIS PLAN – YOU HAVE TO GO GET A JOB.
Seminarians, and I am primarily talking to seminarians here, for some reasons have a mental block about getting a job. Here are five bad excuses for NOT getting a job and some comments regarding each excuse.
1.) EXCUSE NO. 1 – I CAN’T GET A JOB. I’M NOT TRAINED FOR ANYTHING. For some reason 3 years in a seminary seems to make graduates unemployable except in anything but professional church work. My comment is, and I worked in the marketplace for years, is that seminarians are well schooled in reading, writing, thinking, reading texts critically, appropriating text material, speaking well in front of people. In addition, they should have an acquired spiritual formation that lends itself to kindness, generosity and patience with people. There skills are in demand and much appreciated in our service economy.
2.) EXCUSE NO. 2 - I CAN’T TAKE A JOB FOR 6.50 AN HOUR AND SURVIVE. But the fact is that anyone who starts in any field has to start at the entry level. And it is here where you learn about being poor. It is here where you also gain the entry point to build relationships, learn a skill, and prove yourself as a person with all of the above skills. As far as surviving, missional community planters I know often move in with other people at the beginning. They live 2 or 3 families in a house. Pay much less or even no rent. This allows for the time to get established and take that entry-level job that connects one to living rhythms in the neighborhood.
3.) EXCUSE NO. 3 – I WILL BE SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME ON A JOB THAT IS NOT GERMANE TO MINISTRY. Seminarians think that spending many years in something not ministry related will stunt development of ministry skills. This is mind blowing to me. I suggest that working in the marketplace in whatever capacity is transforming and every pastor should do it in some way. It is also incredible how having a well-honed skill in your back pocket gives enormous freedom in ministry even when more full time ministry is forced upon you. You are no longer locked into the insecurity of having to keep a church going (because you know you can get a job) that can constrain you from acting prophetically.
4.) EXCUSE NO. 4 - IT WOULD BE BETTER TO RAISE SUPPORT FROM CHRISTIANS AND THEN HAVE MORE TIME IN MINISTRY. My comment here is that fund raising is great if you have a ready network of support that you can call on. Go for it!! This will free you up to take time and get a job BTW. The problem with fund raising however is that it is often a full time job. It takes a year making 1000 phone calls, making 200 visits. This is the equivalent man-hours of starting a self-sustaining business. Fund raising of course takes hours to keep up those contacts year in and year out. You are basically spending your time with Christians. Fund raising, therefore, in a sense, takes you out of the neighborhood and into the Christian ghetto. It is also Christendom based. It depends on already committed Christians who are a shrinking commodity in the developed West.
5.) EXCUSE NO. 5 – I SPENT 3 YEARS (OR MORE) AND A LOT OF MONEY ON A SEMINARY EDUCATION. NOW THIS WAS A WASTE OF TIME! No it wasn’t. It hopefully prepared you for ministry. Some of the best missional communities I know have been founded by seminary graduates. They are using their education to the fullest in ways never imagined. And if you’ve got loans, that’s unfortunate. But, I suggest, most of the people following the course of bi-vocational ministry make more money (eventually) than in ministry and pay back their loans faster. On taking out loans for seminary, I suggest the right kind of praxis oriented seminary education (that encompasses Biblical studies, theological studies, cultural studies, church practice studies, leadership studies) is important for bi-vocational missional leaders. But I would suggest you do it slowly and in ways that don’t stretch the finances. At Northern we’re working on an M.A. CM in Missional Studies that can be accomplished one night a week for five years at a very low cost monthly.
OK I know this isn’t for everybody. I’ve seen this work mostly with twenty-thirty somethings. But the times a re changing. For what it’s worth, I’ve lived all this myself and seen it take shape in many different ways in missional commuinities. What are your biggest hurdles? Do you know of any other excuses? Is this totally out of the question for you? Blessings on the journey!!
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[...] Reclaiming the Mission » Excuses Seminarians make for NOT Getting A (“Real”) Job [...]
I had been bi-vocational working in a church an a ware house for three years. Eventually I went to a full time position in a church. I found it incredibly difficult to be surrounded by Christians all the time. I missed and still do miss being bi-vocational at times.
My struggle now is how to get back into it, and can I financially do it with my wife and kids. I have times where I feel compelled to do it, but then I fear I wont be able to support my family. Do you have any advice in how to get back into by-vocational ministry after you have gone full time in a church or para church setting?
Thank you for articulating these excuses. I have struggled for the past 4 years with the idea that when I’m not employed by a church that I’m not living up to my calling. But I continued down the bivocational path and now have come to terms that I’m often living into my calling more fully through my hourly job than through my church job.
Living with that tension convinced me that I should start exploring my skill set so that I could be more employable further down the road. I’m now on my way to becoming an actuary with the hopes and plans that in 5 years I will be able to better sustain longterm ministry in one place than if I were forced to jump from church to church after I outstayed my welcome.
It’s not easy, but it seems to be where things are headed.
Very funny and also very thought provoking. I especially was struck this: “The role of the established pastor seems to be like caretaking existing Christians.” That is quite accurate and should be disturbing. If our idea of minsitry is perpetuating a local institution, is that really ministry in any meaningful sense?
(BTW, I was looking at your blog roll to the right. Do you really consider Ed Stetzer neo-Reformed?)
How about serving a small denominational church as the ‘job’ or ‘tent-making’ income producer, faithfully chaplaining them (hospice) if need be and then planting a Missional movement in that community which may or may not have much overlap with the small congregation. Since many of our denominational seminaries give us the skill set to chaplain a congregation anyway, it could turn a deficit in training and congregational inward- focused culture into an asset to build a Missional movement. I could work at McDonalds as I start a christ- centered movement but why not use my accredited skill set and training instead. The rest goes towards healing a city through movementum. Is this fair to the congregation? Would a denomination accept this? Do they even need to know, before they see it happening around them?
@Grant – this was such a great post, but I really like your suggestion as well. There are a lot of part-time ministry jobs available also that could be suitable for what you’ve described.
Not long ago I was interviewed by a local newspaper about how ministry has changed in the last (almost 40 years) that I have been in it. One of the questions I was asked is what I would tell a seminarian nowadays.
My answer was that I would tell them to plan on being bi-vocational and to develop a marketable skill in addition to the many fine skills you do learn in seminary. (Your point about being good at foundational things is right on target. No one should dismiss those writing, speaking, thinking skills as unimportant. They are foundational.)
However, I would learn a skill in addition to that.
in addition to the many fine missional points you make is the economic reality going forward. (& please don’t hear this as making some political point one way or another.)
I believe we are moving into a real economic paradigm shift because of our incredible national deficit, the growing number of people who are aging (re: baby boomers), globalization, etc.
In my opinion, now is NOT the time to be driving with your eye on the rear view mirror. Churches, I believe, are going to really take it on the chin financially over the next several decades and the wise seminarian (& the wise church leader) will take these realities to heart.
Having said that I think that some of our best ministry years are ahead of us. However, it won’t be because churches are flush with money. It will be because of our growing glocal population, our aging population and the economic realities which we are likely to face.
When I teach my class on missional leadership I have my students watch the documentary IOUSA (http://www.iousathemovie.com/) and will have them flip through this slide show. (http://www.businessinsider.com/24-signs-of-economic-decline-in-america-2011-4).
I don’t hold myself out as a prophet or the son of a prophet. I don’t even say “this is GOING TO HAPPEN.” I just ask them to imagine if these things are accurate how they will be going about being the church in America…they may be completely off but just for giggles. How will things be different then than they are now?
I appreciate you blog very much. Always thought provoking…sorry to rant on.
Making them watch that movie is genius. That is the story I try to communicated to the parents of HS Students at the local Christian Schools. No takers four years ago, now is a different story. I own a farm and I hire seminarians (and I am about to finish part time seminary in December). There is a tremendous difference in thinking about work by the Seminarians, for some their whole goal in life is a full time white collar job, living in an ivory tower. For others hard work manual labor is great, and if they can learn to use a seed drill, take care of chickens and run a track hoe, all the better.
But there is a real sense of “limbo” when they are not doing full time work with their newly minted 90ish credit seminary degree. As a person who started a number of companies and then did venture capital for a while and took so many dog legs that I can’t count them all. I’d like to say that this is well storied in technology or other entrpeneurship, but I find it very unstoried in this vocation. There are urban legends in Africa that I have heard, but very little in North America.
“There was this older respected teacher in Nigeria, who started a bible study, and within 2 years, there was a church of three thousand, he still teaches…..” etc…
I think that these are all great suggestions, but have we totally abandoned existing churches? Are the only options megachurches or new church plants? Are there any smaller communities of Christians who would welcome missional leadership?
I think so. I serve and lead one of them.
While we develop new forms, lets not completely give up on every group of already-Christians out there. New and big aren’t the only viable places for ministry.
But, overall, everything else you said here is right.
Hey Alan and Grant,
I didn’t mean to slight the small churches … in fact I see them as a major opportunity across the changing church landscape … of course they require some diffferent mix of vocation as well. I like Grant’s idea ..
Blessings
The thing is, I pastor a church of 250-300 (depending on the time of year) that is pretty incredible. We are learning to live missional lives together. The Sunday service is not the main focus, people are initiating ministry and are being very creative, both personally and in groups. We are mostly young people and young families. But, it is considered a small church. And, it is not a new church plant. So, the thought is that it either isn’t big enough or new enough to be relevant to these discussions because most have given up on existing churches having much to say in these conversations – unless they are big or new.
I am just saying that that is not always the case. Not every existing medium-sized church is full of country club Christians sitting around focused on themselves. That is a caricature that is helpful in selling books and attracting people to conferences, but it does not always bear true in the real world. If Christendom is really evaporating (which I believe it is), then every vibrant expression of faith in Jesus will find itself on the front lines if it just positions itself that way. And, there also are more Christians than you might think who would love to be led in a Kingdom-oriented way.
That’s is a fair point Alan. Though, I’m not convinced that
church plants or mega-churches are preferred over small traditional congregations. My point is that it is very time-consuming and difficult to transition any congregation that has a set institutional Sunday Worship driven culture into a Missional one. I know this since I’ve worked both in a small rural and large suburban denominational church. So, my question (that I’m asking myself) is if time is better spent planting a movement instead of the large investment changing culture. At the end of the day I do believe tha the small congregation is honored if change is not forced upon them and they have something to look to (I.e. A missiona driven movement next door with a leader they know and trust) tha would hopefull persuade them to get on board. It I s much easier to change when you can see something better and feel connected to it rather than trusting a leader that change is good is sight unseen.
This is what a friend of mine and I are attempting here in the central NY region. We’re interim pastors at an Anglican Church in Syracuse while working on establishing a missional community north of the city. It’s been an interesting time, especially since we both work other jobs (I work with Special Ed in a school district; he does web design stuff) and are involved in the lives of our co-workers. We’ve been intentionally leaning the small Anglican congregation towards missional thinking and doing, all while being up front and inviting them to our community happenings. The Anglican congregation is all for what we’re doing and is beginning to ask questions about how to incorporate some of the stuff we do with them. All that to say, it’s been busy, but great working in a variety of communities all with seminary degrees.
This is a marvelously helpful post, David; thanks! I’m in my third of four years at seminary (Mdiv), also picking up an MA in Conflict Transformation in another program. Unfortunately I will have a mountain of loans to dig out from under, but I had ten years in the IT field before coming to grad school, so this bi-vocational/mission-heavy option has sounded very right for me once I graduate. So it’s nice to see you reflect on it from your end, very helpful for my discernment. Peace to you, brother!
Sort for all the dropped letters and typos. I was typing quickly on my iPad. Hope readers could make sense of it.
Some very insightful points in the post and discussion. I would push back a bit on your point that “seminarians are well schooled in reading, writing, thinking, reading texts critically, appropriating text material, speaking well in front of people.”
I agree that these skills are foundational and work in either Christendom-based or missionally-based ministry. And, they are needed in tent-making vocations. However, there are skills specifically for missionally-based ministry that seminary programs just don’t seem to be equipping students in. Such as reading culture and not just reading books. Such as perceiving systems and not just thinking systematically. Such as practice in building teams from scratch and supervising others, and how-to’s of creativity and how-to’s of catalyzing a start-up enterprise. I’m hoping that as more training program and seminary leaders understand and commit to a missional emphasis, the curriculum will expand into crucial skills.
You know, I love the thought behind this but to be honest I’ve not seen it work out in reality. I attempted to work bi-vocational after being employed by a church for 10 years and I couldn’t get a stink’n job. In my city their is competition over the $7 an hour jobs. Everyone looks at my resume and is turned off by hiring a pastor. I’ve had a few friends attempt this as well by taking minimum wage jobs and it almost ruined their family and their finances because they couldn’t pay their bills. I eventually decided to go after fundraising and that put me on a healthier trajectory.
I also find the best way to get out of the rut of being with Christians all the time is to hang out with my neighbors.
Just my experience.
Thanks for posting this great article. You capture the feeling of many young men who have moved to Vermont in the past decade to help us lead a quiet revival in America’s least religious state. You can check out our efforts at http://www.vermontbaptist.org
In an effort to help bivocational pastors be the most effective as possible, I’ve written a book entitled, Developing Leadership Teams in the Bivocational Church. This is not a book of theories. It is real life training for lay people to help a bivocational pastor be sharp. We “field-tested” the material in twelve churches across Vermont and kept tweaking it until we got it right. It is published by CrossBooks, a division of Lifeway (SBC). It is also available on Amazon.com.
Keep up the great writing.
Dr. Terry Dorsett, Director
Green Mountain Baptist Association
Terry,
Sounds great, I’d like to connect when I’m nearby … Dan, are you around Chicago. We might be able to connect you to a few examples of this in motion …
Blessings
Brad,
Agreed those skills are necessary. Agreed that seminaries don’t do well teaching those skills. Of course that wasn’t the point I was addressing. Most seminarians do come out with skills in reading, comprehension, appropriating, speaking ..a nd with a spiritual formation aimed at patience, love and care toward people.
Blessings dude!!!
oops. you’re right, Dr. D., i was off point, and yet perhaps still on trajectory. apologies for any confusion
the random mind
will often find
way thin links
to the thinks
and so seem
in a dream
and there you go with an example of aforesaid randomocity.
rock on, Doc!
I remember commenting to my wife that there as no way we could be bivocational & serve in our ministry. She smiled patiently at me and pointed out that were already bivocational & couldn’t have remained in our ministry had that not been the case. Rather than a job out in the world, we have brought in other sources of income through writing (primarily outside of the Christian context, such as travel pieces, internet copy, etc.) and through rental income (one gift if buying an abandon inner city gang house & converting it into intentional co-housing community, which in turn helps our neighbours).
Given that my context is the inner city, the time demands have been far greater than any of my training (as a missionary & as a church planter) have prepared me for. I would say that in such contexts, the bivocational is still important, but may have to be considered creatively. Given the poverty of our community, I do not receive any income from the church, so rely on financial support as a missionary. However, unless I worked full time at it (as David pointed out), that is not enough. Thus, writing & rental income have the double advantage of providing income AND being sources that free me up for the greater demands in my context.
Above all, I would advocate learning the disciplines of simplicity & embracing co-housing community. We have people who serve with us faithfully for years who make less than some of our welfare folks, but live well as a result of these two dynamics.
Great post, David!
I have really mixed feelings about the reminder that everyone has to start at the bottom.
If a person with a bachelor’s and a seminary degree in hand can only expect minimum wage, that’s pretty remarkable. I had a job that paid better than minimum wage before I graduated from high school. Who’s to say I couldn’t learn what I needed to learn about missional community on the ground and dive into it that way? Why do I need seminary except for denominational approval?
I’m not saying I quite agree with this but you seem to be walking a line between arguing that a seminary education is an intangible good–and I think it is–and presenting the system as a ladder to be scaled. As in, “Sure, you’ve got the degree, now you start at the bottom.” But if you frame it that way with new recruits starting at the bottom of the payscale as it were, I think it’s reasonable for those newbies to ask why the bottom of the payscale is the same kind of money a person could pull down at 17 years old without even a high school diploma.
This is where we normally appeal to vocation. No one got into this to make money and maybe the answer really is embracing poverty. I wonder about the ethics of asking some ministers in the church to embrace poverty while others apparently don’t have to do that.
Annie,
Making some assumptions about high school through Seminary, let’s say seven years…. The US is a very different place then it was seven years ago or even four, that can be part of how much money one makes per hour these days….
But, as in my other posting, i’ve reset to the bottom a couple of times in my dog leg career of technology entrepeneurship, I can’t say it was fun. But prior to every reset, I remember giving up my conceptions, my expectations, and my standing, to the Lord and simply doing the right painful thing, abandoning my career, my location, my business network. And each time after awhile things were better, more interesting, etc. In fact usually within a year or two what I left was a total disaster that I did not foresee.
In tech they used to say do you want to be smart or lucky?
There is some bastardized wisdom in there. I want to be “providentialized”, I think it is easier when you give up what you are, and what you have, being “smart” with those things is not necessarily optimal.
I’m encouraged to see the wrestling going on here. I told @fitchest about a month ago that I went this route. I want to be clear that I have not seen any part of my route as “sacrifice” (by the standards of others, perhaps I have … if driving a mini-van and taking the bus to work are seen as “suffering/sacrifice”) I want to be *very* clear about that, as Jamie Arpin-Ricci stated:
“above all, I would advocate learning the disciplines of simplicity & embracing co-housing community.”
Yeah, I’m not doing that so much ;o). I would hope to consider it more (esp. the simplicity part), but my circumstances have not demanded it for the sake of the mission in the “village” (read: community friendly suburb) where I live outside of Cleveland (one of the greatest cities in N. America – even greater than Toronto).
I graduated with an MDiv. in 2004 and worked at a
St. Arbucks, then as a secretary (staff assistant) at an insurance company, then as a fraud investigator, now as a claims examiner for the government. I make good money. I have lots of flexible time for ministry. My wife has consistently been able to work part-time as a nurse as well in addition to raising our five kids. According to U.S. standards, I started “at the bottom.” But, I want to acknowledge that a.) my wife’s job has been incredibly helpful toward our mission and life in our “village,” b.) mine has, as well, c.) I started this journey in my late ’20s with no kids, and d.) we sense that God has been with us in all this. This is not to come across as bragging but rather to say a couple of things in the midst of this conversation:
1.) I hope that I would and will consider what Jamie recommends above if my economic/job situation changes (and even if it doesn’t – esp. the simplicity part). Mission in our community context [plus God's Spirit, eh?] should guide what kind of life decisions we make.
2.) I really do think that @fitchest’s recommendations are most readily applied to the 20-something/30-something.
3.) I think we should all count the cost of doing community-oriented ministry and if it doesn’t work for us because we’ve gotten ourselves in an economic situation that hinders our mission, we should consider what is the best way forward. In the current economy, I could be in that position one day. Who knows?! But, it’s my hope that I wouldn’t sacrifice mission for the comforts of life that I’ve grown accustomed to.
How about this one, “My student loans from going to Seminary do not allow me to get a job for 6.50 an hour.” Seems to me like the battles should be fought around the cost of theological education. Or at least tghis is half the battle. How about the theological professors taking a pay cut to advance the probability of peole being able to make it into one, and then being able to do bi-vocational once they get out. Right now, you basically have a mortgage before you even have a house once you leave seminary I wuld like to see some reform within the institution of seminaries and the lives of the professors before I listen to professors talk about how people need to look towards being bi-vocational. Just a pet peeve of mine. Not trying to be critical here.
Yo Tim,
I hear you … but just to be fair, most seminary professors make less than the average thirty-something whose in a job for five years that I’m talking about here. That’s why I have to do other things to supplement income … but of course I was bi-vocational and earned a good living in my earlier years … so I have those savings, home equity to fall back on. As for the cost of education, I address that at the end of Excuse No. 5. There are ways to slow it down (if you’re not hurrying to get credentialed to advance a career in professional clergy, you can do that) and make it more worthwhile, and not have it cost in ways you’re talking about. We’re working on that at my place … others are to … but you can probably do that right now at Northern.
Blessings
I did it the other way around and glad I did. I wasn’t called into full time ministry until I was 40 years old. I then attend seminary and graduated by the time I was 42 years old. All of this after having been in the corporate marketplace for 20+ years running a successful business and making a 6-figured income. It simply was time to move on… and I did. Fortunately, I attended a seminary that didn’t empty my pockets or make me give up my mortgage. I paid for my school out of my own hard-earned cash from my business. We did end up raising support, and you are right, it did take a year to raise, but it was well worth it. We developed a lot of new relationships with people who are on mission with us in spirit. My family and I sold or gave away everything and moved overseas where we now serve as missionaries amongst the unreached Roma people of Albania.
More than one way to skin a cat. Encouraging to hear your journey, too.
Thanks Burly.
[...] 5, 2011 in Ben Terry with 0 Comments The other day, David Fitch posted a very interesting article about the importance of seminary students being bi-vocational. [...]
Thanks for writing this post. You have mentioned some of the things I ran into as a full-time, salaried pastor of an SBC church. The more I studied scripture, the less I could justify what I was doing. Therefore, I resigned and ventured into the workplace. What a blessing it has been!
Thanks for this. While my classmates from seminary go on to churches. Those of us who did not, have made our minds up to serve in whatever situation we find ourselves in. For me, it involves finding needy churches with a sole over worked pastor and doing whatever I can to assist him and promote the gospel there.
I thus function as an assistant or elder without the name tag. Without funding, but with support of those I serve. Life is about service to my Lord. For me it involves taking any job that I can get with flexible hours to promote Jesus, for the last 10 years this has been minimum wage. It means not going for promotions if it restricts my time for ministry.
And now that I have to move house, looking for potential ministry areas that can be impacted for him. Added to this, the great exposure to non-Christians that is brought about by working beside them and showing them that the Christian life looks like. I only hope that I remain this flexible for the remainder of my life here, looking forward the eternal city above.
So….I’ve had this article up on my tabs for a few days now, and have just gotten to reading it. Been kinda busy. I work as a Para-educator at a middle school and and a “Part-time” minister at a denominational church. I am also attending seminary and attempting to have a personal life (not going to the bar every night, but you know, I’ve got a gal and am looking at marriage).
This set up started last year when our church was going through budget struggles and I started the proposal of going to part-time at the church (had been full time for 2 years), finding another job to make up the difference in pay. I was a music teacher for three years before taking the full time call to ministry so I looked around at schools as that being my “trade”.
What I’ve found is this: having something take up my 8-3 every day really limits what I can do as a minister. Trying to maintain personal limits in my life has really limited what I can be for each situation I am in. I would like to do more with the ministry, and help raise up new leaders within our church that is needing them, but I find my self drained too often. And in the midst of trying to do youth ministry by the seat of my pants, I am finding myself tired for the other job I have, which can be a great place to do outreach. I also have reading to do, and papers to write and a girlfriend to spend quality time with.
One thing that my seminary teaches is how to set appropriate boundaries that allow you the rest and renewal to be able to give. Fill up your own cup so that you have the ability to share. This set up has not worked for me. We are in talks to have me full time for the summer and this next semester. After that we will revisit how to have this full time position in the budget, but I will also be getting my name out for guitar lessons, piano tunings, etc, that are more flexible in time commitments. I will use my “trade” but also see the huge value of having a full time position that frees you from trying to stretch yourself too thin and being able to commit to the ministry position you serve in. It isn’t that I’m trying to get a free ride, but that I’m looking for a position that allows me to pour my efforts into the church community and it’s outreach abilities instead of eating away at my own resources till they’re gone.
Travis, you said:
“I’m looking for a position that allows me to pour my efforts into the church community and it’s outreach abilities instead of eating away at my own resources till they’re gone.”
I think that’s key. If that’s what you believe you are called to do within an already established community, then perhaps you may look to “full-time professional” ministry.
I am in a different position and my [perceived] calling is different. I’m not “looking to marriage” – I’m already married. My days look like this:
Days working M-Th 6:30am to 4:30 pm (home by 5); F 8am to 3pm (home by 3:30 – but my wife works Fridays and she get home at 6 … so I use that time watching our five kids 6 and under);
Nights: M – Counseling couple with my wife; Tu – Meeting for Bible study discipleship @ 8:30 pm with friend; W – Meeting with two ten year olds @ 7 pm in our group for discipleship; Th – Hanging out with guys @ 8:30 pm in our church community and community at large at local St.Arbucks or watering hole; F – nada; Sa – Hanging with neighbors/friends; Su – Moving toward doing a Sunday service for children in our ‘hood (in place of Sunday at our local church) … Community [more-than-but-including-Bible-study] Group in eve.
So the question is this: do you want to do “missional” ministry or “established church” ministry. Both are necessary. I can’t imagine doing full-time professional ministry any more based on my wiring/calling. When I did it before I felt like an administrator-slash-pastor (and not the other way around). Some thrive on that – and I’m glad they do – but I don’t!
I used to think (before entering the rhythms of life I described above) that I didn’t have time to do all of that. But then I realized that if I only watch – say 5 hours of TV movies a week (and that while folding laundry), I gots plenty of time! Just my two cents.
Oops. Just saw that David Fitch responded already [in a much more succinct way, I might add].
Tim,
seriously … I respect, value and applaud what you’re doing. And I recognize the idea of bi-vocationalism is a struggle and often stressful. Nonetheless, the way you describe your life is not the kind of bi-vocationalism I am describing. Fulfilling a role in an established church (like youth minister) with full-time expectations where ministry (to the youth) is funnelled thru that one person … in and of itself is a full time gig. But I really am talking about a different kind of structure for life together as church in the world. If you do not exercise leadership alongside others where, out of rhythms in your life, you at most give a dedicated 10-15 hours a week to the work of internal ministry, then burn out is inevitable and quick. You cannot do this kind of ministry within traditional heirarchical ministerial patterns … blessings DF
[...] people to be paid to do this sort of work full-time (see an important post by Dave Fitch on this here). There is a way in which these responsibilities need to be taken up by a community, but there is [...]
[...] won’t actually go into this now. For more on this, go see Dave Fitch’s post here. I simply want to name this as one of the main battles of emerging missional [...]
Joining the convo a bit late… My story is similar to many others here.
I just hit 30, have a a beautiful wife and a 19 month old. I’ve been a ‘professional’ pastor for 4 years. My hard earned and expensive bachelors degree is in ‘professional’ church work. I carried an assumption while I was discerning ‘the call’ (for lack of a better term) that it invariably meant I was deciding on a career. As mentioned above, this is the premise that has enabled Semenaries and Christian universities to thrive and pop up all over the place.
So here I stand looking at the future landscape of this vocational mess called ministry and am a bit pissed that I carried the assumption that a call to ministry was also deciding on a career. It still happens, which concerns me. I also stand wondering if I should just grab me a seminary degree at the cost of 20+ grand and get an entry level position a near by McDonalds here in Winnipeg MB (though I may see you there David
. I get the skills that seminary facilitates for me, but I also get that it is possible to learn how to be a rockin ministring person and not spend $$ for a professional designation like, oh, an M. Div. or D. Miss, or M. Th.
When I think of re-thinking seminaries I imagine local people getting together with local leaders and mudding through stuff that we would be paying thousands for in a seminary context. But the cost would be significantly less. The only catch is that I wouldn’t get to put M. Div by my name which is apparently going to be useless anyway.
I wonder if the future of seminary education is competely de-institutionalized to the point that when I would take ‘classes’ at a ‘seminary’ I would not be puting big $ into administrative costs because we would meet at the local McDonalds that I would work at. Seriously though, Imagine a local group, committed to learning together for 3 years, doing seminary’ish’ stuff in the basement of a church building that needed to be used more anyway.
Great post, even though this stuff scares the crap out of me.
thanks
I appreciate these conversations on bivocationalism. One area that needs to be addressed for bivocational ministers is their choice of secular profession. My research based on Brazilian church planters is that they need to develop a specialized skill where they can earn enough for their families and have flexibility with their hours to attend to their growing flock. A college professorship fits the profile well, David. However, a minimum-wage job where the minister is at the mercy of his or her boss in regards to scheduling is asking for frustration, physical exhaustion, neglect of one’s family and very slow church growth. Relationships take time. I served in a team church plant as a bivocational pastor and warehouse foreman so I have been there. There are many other factors involved in bivocationalism, but I want to encourage future bivos to choose your secular skill-set as carefully as you choose your seminary. Many Brazilian denominations ask their ministerial candidates to train for a secular occupation first. Perhaps we can learn from our brothers and sisters in the South who are getting the job done!
P.S. I hope to finish my TIU research in the next few months for those of you who are interested in bivocationalism.
I have really enjoyed the honesty here! Hearing the hearts of ministers who really care, has been so refreshing.
Understanding that personal development is huge for ministers….there are a few things I need your help in grasping as a potential seminary student .
It sounds like financial challenges go hand in hand with answering the call.It appears to initiate with any kind of formal training(if not before) and is accepted as part of the call…in the form of lack or scarcity,unpredictability(but God shows up on time, (usually), or a mentality that does not even expect abundance, especially financially.
I feel confused, I love Jesus and want to advance the kingdom–help people and lead and support them in a relationship with Christ.However, accepting a financially unstable lifestyle mentality , indefinitely….I just don’t see how that cannot be contradictory to Jesus.
As a long time pastor in a mainline denomination, I find the call to now become “bivocational” a bit like a “bait and switch” action. All of the congregations I have served have been in poor rustbelt states or struggling rural communities. I did this out of calling and loyalty to the needs of the denomination whom I serve. Had I wanted to be more successful, then I would have taken a more entrepreneural path into church ministry [w/o or despite the denomination], and restricted myself to only growing metro areas in the country. I chose to follow my heart and go where the denomination needed me in these poor, struggling churches. To be told, “You should be bivocational,” was not even in the seminary vocabulary when I attended.
Churches in general must do their own self reflection in terms of what level of education they expect of their clergy or church leaders? Seminary [and Bible College] does cost money. We are now looking younger generations of college graduates who may die while still in college debt. Have the rules changed in terms of expecting an M. Div or education credentials?