Rob Bell has an excellent video (Dust) on the calling of the disciples and their education levels. While they weren’t the best of the best – they most likely knew the Torah – some even more – BY MEMORY.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of new seminarians can name the books of the Bible – in the correct order.

David – I, for one, agree with the larger point you’re making.

this conversation seems to be going along more amicably…but from what i’ve been taught the disciples who “just didn’t get it” probably had the entire Torah memorized. at the least. but sheesh…for what its worth…if i place myself in that time and place…as best i can…AND even entertain the notion of having the entire Torah memorized…i could certainly still see myself not “getting it” that my Teacher/Mater/Rabbi was God in the flesh AND that he was going to “have to”…by the Father’s plan…die on a cross at the hands of the enemy. that certainly doesn’t discount the well recieved idea that people are saved through the work of the Holy Spirit and not through either our relationshal or marketing skills. that whole “not through my own relational skills” gave me something to ponder, btw…thanks

I do agree that there is a difference in working with people initiated into the story and those who aren’t. And as a missional pastor I realize the amount of time that it can take to build the relationship that some people need to become a Christian. Yet, I have had situations where people with the same backgrounds, same amount of knowledge etc. became followers of Jesus over both short and long time frames.

It seems that too often we forget that it isn’t our relational skills or our ability to put on the mega show that bring people into the kingdom of God, it is His Spirit moving as it will in a person’s life. God is present in each moment and will work personally with each person. That’s what allows me to get past comparing myself to the pastor I sat next to that uses 100,000 piece mailers and mega events to get people in the door. Sure, the majority of the people who go to his church are familiar with the Christian stories, but many aren’t (and the numbers are growing). And to my “chagrin” people become Christians because of his slick presentations.

I believe that God is working in His world in amazing ways, ways beyond my comprehension and ministry plan. Ways that include the Mega and missional and that should allow for us to realize that we are together in all this. Ways that allow for all sorts of conversion experiences. Sure, it ticks me off that the small churches seems to do all the heavy lifting and the Megas reap the attendance, but in the end it is the Kingdom of God that grows. And that makes me very content.

Grace and peace to you,

“anicius”

I do not want to rule out the possibility that immediate conversions can happen to people with no previous familiarity with th story… through means of brilliant cross-cultural translation .. and the telling the Story of God in Christ … all in about 2 hours … it is possible.. yet I suggest not probable of generating 100′s, 1,000′s of conversions.

The 1,000′s of conversions that happened in Acts 2 and elsewhere were with jews .. very VERY familiar with their history as the people of Israel awaiting the Messiah. The apostle Paul,as he moved into the Gentile mission, went FIRST to the synagogues to preach the gospel for precisely this reason, they knew the story! When the apostle preached on Mars Hill, to the non-Jews, the harvest was few …as Acts 17:34 says .. “a few men believed”… and in fact one of the converts mentioned, Dionysius, was most likely a “God-fearing Gentile” a proselyte of Judaism. (read the note in NIV study Bible).

As to your comment about Jesus not knowing the disciples,I would have no doubt the incarnate Son of God could in fact exercise that kind of authority over people. I wouldn’t however, view it as a model of conversion for us as His followers. And as I say, I don’t think that is necessarily an accurate account of what actually happened.

All this to say, we have to understand the difference between converting people well iniiated into the Story .. and the postChrsitendom world, where for all intents and purposes, these folk are illiterate to who the real Jesus is.
Can you grant me this, instead of accusing me of being overly simplistic and dismissive of the gospels?
Peace

The incredible numerical growth in the church and the problems they had early in the church seem to be evidence that these people weren’t the righteous and knowledgeable people you describe.

Of course Jesus/God knew all the people he told to “Come and follow me” in the various times He called people, and yes His focus was on a smaller number but his vision was on all of them: educated, sinners, cripples, beggars, drunks and rich people.

And then the incredible growth that occurred after the dispersion among those who had very little knowledge of Jewish tradition or the concept of Messiah. I just think you are making a poor argument for it taking so long for someone to make a commitment.

Why can’t a person enter a relationship with God and then learn? In every relationship I have ever had I have made a choice to follow and then the process of relational growth begins.

I do think a person can simply say “Yes” to following Jesus and be saved. In fact I’d say most Christians alive and dead have entered the Kingdom of Heaven that way. And then they discovered the richness of relationship with God.

Peace,
Gordy