Comments on: Can Evangelicalism and Capitalism (Not) Get Along? The Upcoming Ancient-Evangelical Future Conference

By: David Fitch

David Fitch — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:07:00 +0000

Michael …
all the talks will be available … unfortunately I think they charge (darn capitalists – wink, wink)

By: Maria Kirby

Maria Kirby — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:16:00 +0000

Capitalism is like the law. Generosity is like grace. We need both. But grace triumphs over the law.

By: Michael DeFazio

Michael DeFazio — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:41:00 +0000

Hello,

I was wondering if your talk will be recorded and available for download. I can’t make the conference but would very much like to hear what you will say.

By: David Fitch

David Fitch — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:09:00 +0000

Matthew, Paul .. I engage Sider on his benign view of capitalism on page 164ff. of The Great Giveaway in a section entitled “Evangelicals and Our Liberal Ways of Justice.” I strongly suggest that Sider does not see the pernicious ways capitalism defeats the justice of God as illuminated by Milbank et al. Instead we must learn to live in but not of capitalism.

By: matthew

matthew — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:14:00 +0000

The idea that capitalism is "the best we've got," is exactly what I heard from my seminary professor who specializes in economics at Regent College. He could see all the problems capitalism creates, but also noted all the benefits it has provided (even for the poorest of the poor), and then said, "basically, it's not perfect, but it's the best we've got."

This has never been a satisfying response to me. It's an answer that lulls us into thinking there's nothing better out there, so why try to fight it? Though I will have to live within (and will benefit from) capitalism for my whole life, I also wish to aid those who are its casualties and point a large sign toward God's Kingdom in the midst of it.

So David, I'm wanting to hear an outline of what it means for the church to function as an alternative polis. Is this like a churchy version of ethnic minorities who set up their own mini-economic systems (I'm thinking of the Chinese in Vancouver)? I imagine not, but don't have any other analogies to consider.

I'm looking forward to hearing more.

By: Anicius Boethius

Anicius Boethius — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 05:28:00 +0000

It is within a capitalist system that we as churches have the freedom to act contrary to capitalism. In fact, as we do live our lives as Peter suggested in his first letter (chapter 2):

"10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king."

Peter seems to point to a way to be subversive within the system by being the most loving servants of all and following the most loving Servant of All's example. To have the freedom to do it within our system may make it harder because to not serve is easier, but true lovers of people (and not just people who talk about it all the time) will stand out.

By: Paul Wilkinson

Paul Wilkinson — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:46:00 +0000

I eavesdropped on a post-seminar scrum as a student asked author Ron Sider about capitalism at a social justice conference in Toronto about a year ago.

Sider basically was saying that of all the various economic models, capitalism is “the best we’ve got.”

By: matthew

matthew — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:03:00 +0000

How old do you have to be to qualify as an ancient evangelical?

Okay, okay, I took the lay-in, but it had to be done.

By: Beloved

Beloved — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:46:00 +0000

Great topic, Dave. A key issue will be differentiating between participating in a capitalist economy on a secular (i.e. civic/state/governmental) level and following capitalist principles in our distinctive practices as churches, and the Church. I respect the need to avoid drawing too stark a line between the sacred and secular, but do recognize that approaching such “secular” spheres of life as civil government in a “spiritual” manner will look considerably different than if we were apply such criteria to, say, a literal theocracy or, of course, ecclesiastical government.

By: Tom Smith

Tom Smith — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:20:00 +0000

This sounds like an excellent and needed talk. Here in South Africa we also need to work out how to critique the pervasive capitalistic mindset within the church itself. Would have loved to be at your talk. Shalom from Africa.