The WMBI REVEAL Interview: What I Would Have Said If I Had had the Chance
Thursday, December 13, 2007
OK, not that anyone needs another bog- post on Willowcreek's REVEAL. But I'm frustrated that the interview (WMBI radio this morning) turned into an apologetic for Willow without any feedback. Julie at the station did a great job and we both agreed this is the nature of radio. Anyways, here's some quick retorts (poorly edited) on the interview between myself and Scot McKnight on WMBI this morning. This is what I would have said if Scot had given me a chance to get a word in edge-wise (wink-wink Scot ... just kidding).
1.) HERE WE GO TRYING TO SATISFY NEEDS AGAIN - THIS TIME IT IS SPIRITUAL GROWTH NEEDS. The big problem with Willowcreek and many forms of American church is that it assumes the church is an institution that exists to satisfy needs - as they exist - unredeemed. When we organize church to do this it changes the very nature of the church making it unrecognizable as the people of God called to live the reality of His excellence before the world (1 Pet 2:9). The problem with the REVEAL report is that it takes all of this one step further, making spiritual growth into a consumerist personal need to be serviced by the church. Spiritual growth cannot be met as an individual separate from community, confessing sin one to another (James 5:16), speaking truth as real people to other people we know in love (Eph 4:25), worshiping and reorienting ourselves to The Reality - God of Jesus Christ, working out our lives in regular communal fellowship in submission one to another (Phil 2:12 after the order we are to be shaped into Phil 2:1-11). These practices cannot be mass-organized. They take intentional community.
2.) THE PERSONAL DISCIPLINES ARE NOT ENOUGH. Willow's REVEAL thinks the answer is for them to train each of their people into the individual disciplines. The so-called Navigator wheel. Personal bible study, prayer, fellowship and service to others. Yet I know, from talking to Navigator leaders high up that this approach alone has been a failure. We need communal spiritual practices as well. They are essential.As I said, these practices are more akin to a missional order and cannot be mass organized.
3.) The problem with THE MEGA-CHURCH approach is its processes BREEDS PASSIVITY. REVEAL says our problem was we made people too dependent upon us. Yet this is the nature of the large attractional show church service which all mega churches are built around and get their name. IT IS POWERFUL SPIRITUAL FORMATION. It breeds passivity from the very start. To sit anonymously, take in the show of Christianity and pick and choose what I want to use for that day. It in essence makes Christianity unrecognizable. Can REVEAL do some research on this?
4.) The REVEAL report continues to assume the church is about CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. And so SPIRITUAL GROWTH IS SEEN AS A PRODUCT (see p. 90 of the report). But this is the root of the problem for those of us who see consumerism as the problem. Christianity is not about individual benefits although there are many derivative of participating in a life ordered by God's Mission. To turn spiritual growth into something we offer as a church is once again to repeat the same mistakes all over again.
5.) REVEAL says we asked churches outside of Willow. But THE QUESTIONS THEMSELVES ASSUME A CERTAIN VIEW OF THE CHURCH which in itself is the problem. The questions about "rating satisfaction" regarding "church benefits" (I have to believe) would be laughed out of most missional churches I know. (the quotes are from p.53 of report).
Finally, when you see the church as God's chosen social strategy for redeeming the world, the place where he is working, the social embodiment of His new way of life displayed before the world, it is hardly appropriate to ask someone if they are satisfied with it. It is like asking someone if they are satisfied with God's salvation in Christ. Rate your satisfaction?
There is much more to be said. But what was telling in the WMBI radio interview was the callers who called in. A slice of American Christianity - extolling the virtues of putting on a show because alot of people show up, it works (uh in what way?) therefore quit criticizing, alot of young people show up to see a movie and the show, so our kids are in church - everyone should be happy (and when they graduate high school all the statistics say they will never come back), "double dipping"- going to a church to get things.
To me this is what American churches try to play to in order to survive. And in a few short generations, we shall see we have not survived following this way. THIS IS WHAT REVEAL REVEALS.
No one is trying to demonize Willow here. This is the most influential, self published, promoted ecclessiology in the world. If I am a theologian of any worth, I and others must engage the theology and cultural assumptions of this organization and its vast publications. We do this for the furtherance of Christ and His Mission. We do this seeking more faithfulness. We submit it to the Spirit for him to work (Acts 15). To this end, I continue to encourage Greg Hawkins of Willowcreek, Scot McKnight, and others to talk. In fact let's talk together.
Yesterday on WMBI, Willow Pastor Hawkins (one of the authors of the report) said the bloggers have not read the report. I have. He said that we should call and talk. I have written in the past. No response. Not blaming anyone. You all are busy I know. But in response, I put out an open invitation to get together. I am willing to organize a conference that is off Willow's campus, bringing Willow, theologians and pastors together. I will charge only the cost to cover the expenses. LET'S GO! You know where to reach me. Put a comment on this blog or e-mail me via lifeonthevine.org. Blessings!
Posted by David Fitch | 6:33 AM
COMMENTS:
OK ... I guess we're all back on WMBI this afternoon for an hour with Primetime America ... 2 p.m. CT ...
9:15 AM
David, I've been too busy to catch any radio during the day, but your five points include three of the nagging items for me - whew, for a while there I was feeling alone. Yes, these are enduring lessons and are point to the deep conversion (did I say repentance?) that remains necessary in the western church.
9:39 AM
i was also dissapointed with the wmbi interview. personally i struggle with my strong desire to be the church in terms of jesus words vs the constant discussions that i as a leader find myself trying to get through in order to do that. although it is good to discuss and strive for excellence it seems that it too can become a distraction from the work we should be doing
you will love stopconsuming.org ( ie:church)
and shemamovment.com
check them out ...lisa
10:06 AM
What we evangelicals need is something like a call ( cf the Chicago Call)to bring us back to the wisdom of Ancient Church something that would ask evangelicals to go back to the early church to better shape the church of now and the future. If we did this Reveal would not be necesssary.
10:33 AM
My fear is always that the mega-church mentality too easily confuses its image with the image of the current American consumer mentality of bigger and more convenient is better... Do churches confuse capitalism and industry with the Gospel? It is a question that I think ought to be addressed more directly without fear of offense in the evangelical community.
We have been uncritically accepting to ask the question of what Jesus would do, but I think that there is another important question we are not asking. Another way to ask the question is this: To whom would Jesus preach today (he preached to the outcasts of the social structures of his time), and who would Jesus hold accountable for their failures to bring radical love to these same outcasts (think of the holder of the Law in his day - the scribes)?
This question, if addressed in strategy and in operations in our large corporate-modeled ecclesiastical organizations and our small traditionally-entrenched communities perhaps married more to building maintenance, I think would have a changing impact on the structures of how our religious organizations address the calling to which they are beholden.
The question gets at the issue that Christians in the WWJD spirituality of mission are the subjects of that mission. I would rather like to think of all Christians in the US these days in terms of the object of mission. So let's all ask WWJP?: What Would Jesus Preach? It may indeed be a spiritual instance of the famed 3-Way Mirror on the show What Not To Wear. None of the people on the show like that mirror, but it is the first step to changing oneself!
Just a hypothesis I think worthy to pursue.
11:58 AM
I am listening to your interview with Scott McKnight on WMBI. I agree with much of what is being said and have been working in this area of Consumption and community forming for about 2 years now.
I have a pretty good idea on how we can work to get The Church to move forward in God's direction.
Lets do lunch and talk about stuff.
The Church needs more collaborators--so lets see if we have some common ground we can help each other with.
Spencer
224-805-3618
www.shemamovement.com
www.stopconsuming.org
12:58 PM
David,
I didn't catch the morning interview, but caught the last half of thw afternoon show.
I'm glad you got at least some of your points in--it seemed like in the afternoon show.
I respect Scot, but I totally am with you on these points--I briefly blogged on points one and four before reading this tonight. I think these are substantial points.
4:47 PM
Dave,
I missed the morning program but was able to listen to the entire afternoon show. I'm still processing it - but the issue is, as ever, consumer church. Willow wants to better serve their individual "customers" personal spiritual needs. The Hybels' comment in the Reveal video, comparing creating individualized spiritual discipline programs to personal trainers speaks volumes.
I do hope you can convince Hawkins, McKnight et al to come to your conference.
It does seem like Willow is in spin control mode right now - with Hawkins on WMBI yesterday and preaching on the Reveal report on Sunday. But, perhaps I'm wrong.
Perhaps we are but voices lost in the blogosphere. (I'm reminded that the radio show host hadn't heard of the Reveal study up until 36 hours before the show.)
7:52 PM
Phil ... you know about the Ancient Evangelical Future Call don't you? and the conference. It is exactly what you describe.
I'm reading these comments and truthfully I am thinking, what a gift this REVEAL has been to the church from Willlow, even though its effects have been largely unintended. The breadth of the discussion has been stunning. I felt the interviews today, especially when we had more time in the second interview, were productive.
8:22 PM
"So let's all ask WWJP?: What Would Jesus Preach? It may indeed be a spiritual instance of the famed 3-Way Mirror on the show What Not To Wear. None of the people on the show like that mirror, but it is the first step to changing oneself!
Just a hypothesis I think worthy to pursue:"
So lets pursue it!
I have to admit, I was sent to this blog by an emergent fellow with whom I am having a discussion. I was happy to see David addressing this issue as well. I don't agree that a return to ancient spiritual practices is the answer; unless the ancients you refer to are found in Acts 2:42-47, where there was not the sign of the cross, incense burning, adoration of icons (nee Idolatry) nor the adoration of the eucharist, which many of the emergent bent want to return to when they speak of ancient practices.
Oh yeah...WWJP?
To whom? Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. That included the vilest of sinners all the way up to the most self righteous pharisee. The three way mirror (I like that illustration) he used was the Law, found in the ten commandments. Paul said that the law should be used rightly, and when it is, it stops the mouths of sinners, and it is a schoolmaster or tutor that reveals your need. It was only after the weight of the law did its work in a prideful heart that the gospel was ever preached; unless the heart was ready, the preaching of the cross was foolishness and is foolishness.
I think those on this blog, specifically David Fitch and other emergent types would do well to read Faith Undone by Roger Oakland. You will be shocked to find that the same movement that sparked Willow Creek and Saddleback brought about many emergent leaders today like Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Doug Pagitt, Len Sweet, et.al.
6:27 AM
"Are you satisfied with God's salvation in Christ?" - that was pretty funny. Deb and I laughed.
11:37 AM
Do you all remember the thing about the "bread of life" - well, if the church/Church does not exist to get the "Bread of life" to the consumer - what do you really want it to do?
1:14 PM
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