Comments on: IMAGES THAT HELP US THINK ABOUT THE NEW SITUATION WE ARE IN #1: The Image of “THE OTHER” and Post Christendom Evangelism http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/ Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:22:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Marlyn Lolagne http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-38984 Marlyn Lolagne Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:17:52 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-38984 Tired of obtaining low amounts of useless visitors for your website? Well i want to let you know about a brand new underground tactic which makes me personally $900 per day on 100% AUTOPILOT. I possibly could be here all day and going into detail but why dont you simply check their site out? There is really a great video that explains everything. So if your seriously interested in making hassle-free cash this is the website for you. <a href="http://tiny.cc/p7mq4" rel="nofollow">Auto Traffic Avalanche</a> Tired of obtaining low amounts of useless visitors for your website? Well i want to let you know about a brand new underground tactic which makes me personally $900 per day on 100% AUTOPILOT. I possibly could be here all day and going into detail but why dont you simply check their site out? There is really a great video that explains everything. So if your seriously interested in making hassle-free cash this is the website for you. Auto Traffic Avalanche

]]> By: Jesse http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13767 Jesse Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:55:17 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13767 > we Christians . . . presumptuous This is a great piece, and I think it is vital for all Christians to self-inspect along these lines. The Other-to-Same idea is everywhere, both in more liberal and more conservative wings of the church, as well as our pervasive Western cultural assumptions. And, as usual, it often gets tangled up with the best of intentions. Witness, for example, some ideas on religious pluralism over in this thread on Wondercafe.ca - http://wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/do-all-religions-lead-god > we Christians . . . presumptuous

This is a great piece, and I think it is vital for all Christians to self-inspect along these lines.

The Other-to-Same idea is everywhere, both in more liberal and more conservative wings of the church, as well as our pervasive Western cultural assumptions. And, as usual, it often gets tangled up with the best of intentions. Witness, for example, some ideas on religious pluralism over in this thread on Wondercafe.ca – http://wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/do-all-religions-lead-god

]]> By: Jeff Andrews http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13599 Jeff Andrews Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:28:21 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13599 Those other posts help...thanks. I remember reading them in May but I'll have to reread them now. Those other posts help…thanks. I remember reading them in May but I’ll have to reread them now.

]]> By: Michael Lipuma http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13591 Michael Lipuma Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:33:08 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13591 I wonder if asumming the other as the same as me isn't a form of self-idolitry, seeing that God did not make man in my image? I wonder if asumming the other as the same as me isn’t a form of self-idolitry, seeing that God did not make man in my image?

]]> By: David Fitch http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13577 David Fitch Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:17:55 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13577 Matt The post-language gets a little nauseous ... agreed. I'm using these "three posts" because I think they are helpful to describe the shifts ... which are from culture (where say attractional makes sense) to another where it no longer does. I did not go into a description of them because I think they can be explained in the process of describing these images (i wanted the focus to flow off these images). At some point i can do more description on these "posts" Thanks! and Jeff ... hope Matt Tebbe provided links that get at what you're pushing for ... I agree with the need for training in a certain mode Matt
The post-language gets a little nauseous … agreed. I’m using these “three posts” because I think they are helpful to describe the shifts … which are from culture (where say attractional makes sense) to another where it no longer does. I did not go into a description of them because I think they can be explained in the process of describing these images (i wanted the focus to flow off these images). At some point i can do more description on these “posts”
Thanks!
and Jeff … hope Matt Tebbe provided links that get at what you’re pushing for … I agree with the need for training in a certain mode

]]> By: Matt Johnson http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13554 Matt Johnson Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:46:35 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13554 Hi Dave, Thanks for this. I echo the other's appreciation of the content here. You said: "I find the terms “post-attractional, post-positional, and post universal (language)” helpful descriptors of these new cultural conditions we (at least some of us) are ministering in." Hmm...perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth in philosophical terminology here, but the proliferation of "post-whatever" isn't all that helpful for me. I think most people get the basics of post-modernism (though I've heard that the philosophical world has already moved on). I myself am prone to refer to "post-Christendom" in describing things to my congregation, thanks in large part to RTM. But I shudder to think that I also have to incorporate "post-attractional", "post-positional", and "post-universal" into my vocabulary! My real beef is this: These words all define themselves by what they follow or react to. But what's the positive reality of their reference? Dave, what you are saying is of immense help to the church, but I think it will be better received by me and others if you can describe these new cultural realities with language/images that provides it's own content (like "missional" does) rather than saying that we're post this or that. Am I making any sense here? Just foggy? Wish I had some helpful suggestions! Hi Dave,
Thanks for this. I echo the other’s appreciation of the content here.

You said:
“I find the terms “post-attractional, post-positional, and post universal (language)” helpful descriptors of these new cultural conditions we (at least some of us) are ministering in.”

Hmm…perhaps I’m revealing my lack of depth in philosophical terminology here, but the proliferation of “post-whatever” isn’t all that helpful for me. I think most people get the basics of post-modernism (though I’ve heard that the philosophical world has already moved on). I myself am prone to refer to “post-Christendom” in describing things to my congregation, thanks in large part to RTM. But I shudder to think that I also have to incorporate “post-attractional”, “post-positional”, and “post-universal” into my vocabulary!

My real beef is this: These words all define themselves by what they follow or react to. But what’s the positive reality of their reference?

Dave, what you are saying is of immense help to the church, but I think it will be better received by me and others if you can describe these new cultural realities with language/images that provides it’s own content (like “missional” does) rather than saying that we’re post this or that. Am I making any sense here? Just foggy? Wish I had some helpful suggestions!

]]> By: David Fitch http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13355 David Fitch Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:27:33 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13355 thanks for these great comments ... I've been without internet for three days while at the NOC 09 Conference. I was too cheap to spend the 10 bucks a day for it! :) ... Anyways, I'm in San Diego airport and off to catch a plane ... but I'll join in here tomorrow... Thanks again for the provoking thots questions .. thanks for these great comments … I’ve been without internet for three days while at the NOC 09 Conference. I was too cheap to spend the 10 bucks a day for it! :) … Anyways, I’m in San Diego airport and off to catch a plane … but I’ll join in here tomorrow… Thanks again for the provoking thots questions ..

]]> By: Bill http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13354 Bill Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:14:57 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13354 As usual, profound and thought provoking and a necessary statement on the sad state of today's Westernized church. Two concerns - what role do we take with the misguided leaders of the attractional/mega-church? (somehow letting them sink seems somehow less than Christlike) and more importantly, what language do we speak? To speak the language of the current church falls into the disrepute identified by Levinas and if we speak the language of the times, aren't we running the risk of either absorption into the mass and therefore becoming meaningless (something like the Dobsons/Wallis's of todays Christendom) or of being shunted off to the margins (which isn't necessarily all that bad). Echoing the last point by Jeff isn't some form of church in some form appears necessary for training/discipleship etc to come to the point of being able to live missionally. As usual, profound and thought provoking and a necessary statement on the sad state of today’s Westernized church. Two concerns – what role do we take with the misguided leaders of the attractional/mega-church? (somehow letting them sink seems somehow less than Christlike) and more importantly, what language do we speak? To speak the language of the current church falls into the disrepute identified by Levinas and if we speak the language of the times, aren’t we running the risk of either absorption into the mass and therefore becoming meaningless (something like the Dobsons/Wallis’s of todays Christendom) or of being shunted off to the margins (which isn’t necessarily all that bad). Echoing the last point by Jeff isn’t some form of church in some form appears necessary for training/discipleship etc to come to the point of being able to live missionally.

]]> By: Matt Tebbe http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13350 Matt Tebbe Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:44:19 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13350 Hey Jeff, Dave has blogged about that question before. Check out these posts: http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/wtwnc-from-bridge-to-onramp-%E2%80%93-on-a-proposed-way-to-teach-people-missional-evangelism/ and http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-bad-habits-of-christendom-evangelism-%E2%80%9Cthe-romans-road%E2%80%9D-the-four-spiritual-laws-evangelism-explosion-and-the-bridge-illustration-wtwnc-3/ Hey Jeff,

Dave has blogged about that question before. Check out these posts:
http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/wtwnc-from-bridge-to-onramp-%E2%80%93-on-a-proposed-way-to-teach-people-missional-evangelism/

and

http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-bad-habits-of-christendom-evangelism-%E2%80%9Cthe-romans-road%E2%80%9D-the-four-spiritual-laws-evangelism-explosion-and-the-bridge-illustration-wtwnc-3/

]]> By: Jeff Andrews http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/%e2%80%9cthe-other%e2%80%9d-and-post-christendom-evangelism-six-images-that-help-us-think-about-the-new-situation-we-are-in-1/comment-page-1/#comment-13326 Jeff Andrews Fri, 06 Nov 2009 05:13:43 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/?p=709#comment-13326 I'd like to add to my earlier comments. In thinking about the IV approach to witness, I realize that we had a sort of schizophrenic methodology. On the one hand, we emphasized personal witness/friendship evangelism. We encouraged students to develop true friendships with people (without conditions on those friendships or timelines for "conversion"). We challenged students to hang out with their non-believing friends at non-InterVarsity/church-related activities, incarnating the Gospel. On the other hand, we still subscribed to the traditional Bridge Diagram and "sinner's prayer" (though we did not emphasize a verbatim recitation of some magic formula for salvation). We also still had "Outreach Nights" where students could invite friends to "hear the Gospel." (This was 6+ years ago at UIUC...I don't claim to speak for IV everywhere nor do I know their current evangelism strategies.) I also want to say that I really appreciate the encouragement to "look for ways to inhabit our neighborhoods as Christ." That is what I have, for the most part, always tried to do and encouraged others to do, even before I knew what "missional" meant. A question I have is, "What should evangelism training look like in post-Christendom?" I think some kind of training for witness is still needed...it just needs to look different...but I'm not sure how. Any thoughts on this? I’d like to add to my earlier comments. In thinking about the IV approach to witness, I realize that we had a sort of schizophrenic methodology. On the one hand, we emphasized personal witness/friendship evangelism. We encouraged students to develop true friendships with people (without conditions on those friendships or timelines for “conversion”). We challenged students to hang out with their non-believing friends at non-InterVarsity/church-related activities, incarnating the Gospel. On the other hand, we still subscribed to the traditional Bridge Diagram and “sinner’s prayer” (though we did not emphasize a verbatim recitation of some magic formula for salvation). We also still had “Outreach Nights” where students could invite friends to “hear the Gospel.” (This was 6+ years ago at UIUC…I don’t claim to speak for IV everywhere nor do I know their current evangelism strategies.)

I also want to say that I really appreciate the encouragement to “look for ways to inhabit our neighborhoods as Christ.” That is what I have, for the most part, always tried to do and encouraged others to do, even before I knew what “missional” meant.

A question I have is, “What should evangelism training look like in post-Christendom?” I think some kind of training for witness is still needed…it just needs to look different…but I’m not sure how. Any thoughts on this?

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